OC Foam?

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JerryM

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Today I was told that in some jails/prisons, the inmates have learned to wipe OC foam off their faces and throw it back at the guards. I don't doubt it, but have never heard it before.

Anyone heard of that, or any LEOs experienced such?

I recently bought some Fox, and another good brand of foam. I seem to be especially sensitive to the spray, and when I go outside to test a container, I make sure the wind is behind me, and I don't spray much. Without exception, however, I never make it inside without coughing.

I am not sure if I used the spray on a BG who would be disabled first.

I have a friend who is a LEO and had to use his OC, which was foam, against three guys who were drunk and about to throw him in the lake. He said that all three collapsed immediately when the foam hit them. There were several others there, but they immediately decided they did not want any of that.

I would appreciate any comments from anyone with personal or at least reliable second hand experience.

Thanks,
Jerry
 
Are you a LEO and/or work indoors? The main reason for foam as I've been told was to keep OC from getting into ventilation systems. I think stream is better for general purpose use...no experience though. I've been issued/carried both kinds, but haven't had to use it.
 
I am aware of anecdotal evidence that this has happened. The BG will put both hands on their face and fling the foam back at the officer. I havent witnessed if first hand, but I am confident my info is relatively reliable.

I like foam as it can have a literal impact, however minor. I would also bet it is more "blinding" until it runs off. It is somewhat more discreet in crowded settings and will not contaminate as many "innocent bystanders"
 
One problem with OC is that once someone has been exposed in the past, they can grit thier teeth and remember that it won't kill them.
When you get sprayed for the first time, you are prone to panic. You think you're going to die, so you writhe around, hacking and crying. Once you've been past that initial exposure, its easier to push through the exposure and resist.
Just my personal observation and experience from OC and CS exposure in the military.
 
Atc1man,

I don't doubt what you say. However, I would hope that it would be distracting, and give me enough time to do whatever seemed best at the time.
If one has to close his eyes or his vision is hindered that is an advantage.

Just as a bullet will not necessarily disable one immediately so we must realize that other means won't necessarily either.

I do have a best friend who just retired as a LEO. He said that his officers never had experienced a situation where OC, Punch II in his case, did not stop the fight. I have never had to use mine, and I have seen on TV where one was not immobilized, but I don't know what they used.

Jerry
 
You do realize there are a lot of folks here in NM that regard the food grade OC as a condiment?:p Seriously though, the foam is much easier to clean up after if you use it indoors. Decontaminating an area saturated with the liquid is difficult and expensive. Yes, you can throw the foam around. Always have alternate means of defense, a lot of people in this state have partial to full immunity.
 
Jerry,
What I meant is really in regards to the foam. I've heard that its not as effective, and it wouldn't surprise me since most vilent criminals have probably been sprayed a time or two that they know how to resist the foam.
I'd go for the stream, preferably with a dye.
 
OC Foam

I run a private Security firm. Most of my officers are licensed to carry CN, CS, and OC. I have been told by three of my officers, (all three are now police officers) after they used it, that the foam OC takes more time to work, can be partially wiped off before it takes affect and that it can be used as a weapon on the officer himself.

Since I had cautioned them against foam in the first place (and any dye or marking agent), this "proves" it for me; and that I would not carry it for the above reasons. I still warn my employees about foam, and forbid any dye agent in the CN, CS, or OC.
 
Here are some guidelines that may help in choosing a spray pattern.

Fog- Has the smallest particles.
Is the most readily inhaled, making it the most effective.
Is the most likely to be blown backwards by wind.
Doesn’t travel very far about 3-6 feet.
Least likely to cause “hydraulic needle effectâ€.
Causes the most “cross contaminationâ€.

Cone/Mist/Shotgun- Slightly larger particles than fog.
Readily inhaled.
Travels farther than fog 3-8 feet.
Easier to be seen at night than stream.
Harder to blowback than fog.

Stream- Travels farther than any other spray pattern 3-12 feet.
Not readily inhaled.
Harder to be blown back.
Most likely to cause “hydraulic needle effectâ€.
Harder to hit target.
Harder to see at night.
Pinpoint accuracy.

Foam- Causes the least “cross contaminationâ€.
Has the largest particles and is not inhaled.
Sticks to surface.
MAY have some “throw back†potential.
Short travel of 3-5 feet.
Designed for indoor use like courtrooms and jails.
Slippery on floors.
Easiest to see in darkness.
 
Tracy and others,

Thanks for the very helpful information. Obviously for different applications different types are more useful than some others.

I'll keep those things in mind as I buy more for carry.

Another aspect is the size of the unit. I think most LEO advise that the keychain size is not large enough and do not recommend it. However, it is like the small vs large handgun. One at home does not do the job when not at home. My wife is not going to carry a 2 oz unit, and sometimes I am not either.

When testing the keychain units they do seem to have enough spray for one or maybe two BG.
Any comments on that issue?

For my own use, I am 72 with some bad arteries. I go to the gym 3 days a week and work out. I usually go 30 - 45 minutes on the treadmill at up to 3.7 mph. I tell you this to say that although I am pretty active, I am not going to be able to run, or fight hand-to-hand for more than a few seconds. That is unless I can call time out and take a shot of nitro.

Therefore whatever I have must work reasonable fast, and in the case of OC not blow back on me.
I would have to go the "disparity of force" route pretty fast, and use deadly force.

At night I often carry a Surefire or similar bright xenon light. The use of it at close range would be blinding for a few seconds, and that gives me some time. I might mention that I am not out at night much, except church, and Wendy's for coffee after.

So my intent is to try to have the best and most useful defense both non-lethal and lethal.

I think it might also be true that the average teen gangbanger is not well versed in OC, so he might not be aware that he might be able to fight through it. But who can say in any particular case. I realize that I cannot and am not trying to take the worst case in every possible circumstance, and be fully prepared for it. There is a trade off.

Thanks again for the help. If you have any comments, and especially re the keychain size OC (Fox) please do so.
 
I use stream, from seeing it work on the street.

If my keychain sized OC (Fox 5.3) doesn't do it, there's a .45 with 21 rounds to fix that, and a knife.

I was in a situation where I had the .45 but no OC and the OC could have stopped the escalation earlier.
 
I was in a situation where I had the .45 but no OC and the OC could have stopped the escalation earlier.
Click to expand...

I got the Fox 5.3 keychain for me and the Mrs. I never carry mine, I figure Kahr K9, spare mag, surefire 6Z, cell and emerson are enough junk to haul around. I should start carrying it though...I'm sure the lowlifes would appreciate my thinking of them. ;)

-Hey, that would be a good defense in court. "Well, I used to just carry deadly weapons, but I started to think how these criminals are just trying to make a living so I started carrying OC too.":D
 
No dye.

The reason I forbid dye is because you are going to get it on everyone in the area; and you will be replacing all the clothes worn by the crowd that is around the event. The last time I used OC I was breaking up a fight in a parking lot. I got the two targets (teens), and about 10 teens who were crowding around them egging them on.

If you spray someone and they can not see it, they will generaly get over it. However if you ruin their clothes they will continue to complain and will probibly win in court. Also, if I have to fight them to the ground I do not want that dye on me.

Why do you want to mark them? You just want them to go a way, unless you are law enforcement you are not going to go hunting for them.
 
Why do you want to mark them? You just want them to go a way, unless you are law enforcement you are not going to go hunting for them.
Click to expand...

Yes you want them to go away but marking them will help identify them to the Police that you called and reported the confrontation to after it was over.

What, you did'nt call the police and report it?

That is probably why the police are knocking on your door wondering why you sprayed the nice man who was only minding his own business.

That is what he told the police when he called them. :)

food for thought
 
It would seem that a great application for the foam would be if you were in your car and somone came up to it and you needed to repel them without deadly force. Otherwise the spray might be throughout the inside of the car.

Jerry
 
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