Ocw test, now what?

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MCFLYFYTER

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I have never tried the optimum charge weight method before, and it seemed like a waste. All groups were within a 3/8" circle except one that was 1/4" left. No real pattern, the groups are randomly located around the 3/8" circle, none inside. Does this mean I can use any powder charge?
 
I guess I could give some more info.
Howa 1500 mini in 223 heavy barrel cut to 16" with silencer and 32x athlon
Varget 25.4 to 26.8 under Bob's bullets .025 often lands
Shots all felt pretty good, a little bit of weather but nothing that concerned me.
Groups ranged from 1.375" to 0.375".
 
Do you have chrono data? What distance was the group shot? How many shots per group? Pictures of the groups? How many total groups (charge weight difference between groups)?

Based on the info you gave, there is at least one group that shows promise (0.375"). Look at the groups one charge weight below and above. Are those groups also very close in POI? Are the group size respectable? If they are, then you may have found your OCW.
 
No chronograph yet
3 round groups at 100 yards
8 loads .2 gr apart

I thought with the ocw method you dont look at group size, only poi shift. Phone is too dead to take pics. Groups are kinda scattered for size. The 3 hottest loads are .5", 1", .5" the .375" is the second lowest charge

Should I just ditch the ocw, and hunt for groups?
 
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I thought with the ocw method you dont look at group size, only poi shift. Groups are kinda scattered for size. The 3 hottest loads are .5", 1", .5" the .375" is the second lowest charge

Should I just ditch the ocw, and hunt for groups?

Ask yourself what the purpose of the OCW is. To find the most accurate load, right? Then, obviously, your target will tell you when you have found the best load = smallest group.

You'll need much more than just 3-shot groups. A 10-shot group should be your minimum round count. More shots would be even better. And be sure to shoot all the rounds for a given load into one group. None of this shooting multiple groups with the same ammo and then calculating an average. That's misleading. What you want to know is how all the shots with your load groups, e.g. the size of a 10-shot group. The winner is the smallest group.

Then to be sure, you'll want to replicate it. And don't expect all of your 10-shot groups with the same ammo to be the same. They won't be. Group size can vary a lot even when shooting the same ammo. Refer to the link I posted previously.
 
Ask yourself what the purpose of the OCW is. To find the most accurate load, right? Then, obviously, your target will tell you when you have found the best load = smallest group.
I’m just starting in PR and no expert but my read of OCW is interpreting the POI shifts of the center of the group, and then determining where the minimum shifts are. There may be more than one minimum across the load ranges.
This charge weight is then “insensitive” to POI. That is slight variations in charge weight won’t change POI. The theory is At this charge weight all the barrel harmonics along with the bullet gyrations are “optimal”.
Once you determine these nodes, you do a lands test to see if group size improves.
When I do my OCW workup, I also record velocity and while that’s not part of OCW I want to see if there’s also a velocity node. So far I’ve seen a correlation although I’m not sure that’s relevant.
Others have schooled me that this OCW workup reference specifies 100yards, it should be done at a further, 300yd distance.

I thought with the ocw method you dont look at group size, only poi shift.
This is correct according to the following:

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Did you see any shifting in centers of each group of each charge weight? Or, better yet, no shifting? If all showed the same shift or no shift it may be you’re not shooting at a great enough distance to see the perturbations. Or you’re really lucky and you’ve got a John Wayne gun that hits every time!
 
Since you are using a short bull barrel, the "whip" based poi shift will be less.

What charge was the group that was 1/4" left?
 
There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

What we should recognize is that Gunwriters are shills for the industry. They really don't want to exhaustibly test the weapons they are given for several reasons. The first is time and materials. Gunwriters are given a flat fee for their articles, according to DPris $400, the less they shoot, the less they spend, the more money they get to keep. The less time and material they have to spend on the current article, the more time and less money they have to spend on the next. That is one reason, and another is because even though these guys get weapons that are "worked over", they are not interested in proving the inherent accuracy of the thing, because the inherent accuracy of the thing may not meet the communities' expectations.

Eley came to one of the Smallbore Prone National Matches to give a sales pitch for their in door range. Eley has a 50 meter range in the US and Lapua has a 100 yard range. I have been to the Lapua range for lot testing of ammunition in one Anschutz rifle. Both entities shoot 40 shot composite groups for the most promising ammunition. And yet, based on the lot tested case of Edge I purchased, once I got the round count up in matches, I am not impressed with the stuff. It basically takes a brick of 500 rounds before I really have confidence in the accuracy of my 22lr match ammunition. Forty rounds seems to be a lot of rounds, but even that is not definitive for consistency. It takes more shots.

Gunwriters are slowly moving the shooting community to 21 feet accuracy standards, one shot groups, and finally "virtual" groups where the gun writer imagines where the bullet goes. Because these guys are accepted as authorities, the shooting community will accept the new standards. Just as NASCAR fans are accepting computer simulation races as substitutes for a real car race.

@Hummer70 wrote an excellent article on service rifle accuracy:


Question on Neck Sizing .308 for M1A

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5424409


Note, when reading posts about Garand accuracy, how many shooters claim sub MOA or MOA rack grade Garands.

This is a three shot sub MOA group at 300 yards I made with a M70 Featherweight. I took this picture because it was so pretty. By the standards of the internet, irrefutable evidence that I have a half MOA rifle.

nCNbGBG.jpg

Not a half MOA group when made into a ten shot group, but I am going to state that a ten shot group slightly over 1 MOA is doing pretty good out of hunting rifle. It is the best one for that rifle at 300 yards. So, like everyone else, I am cherry picking my data.


WS2wWAC.jpg

Wpl2oYN.jpg

At times I get lazy and try to sort out promising candidates with five shot groups and then later, come back and shoot ten shot groups to see if the trend is real.The five shot group was real promising.

4Gqc1vD.jpg

the twenty shot, not nearly as stellar

QlzdKQd.jpg

The extreme spread at 300 yards was 7.6 inches, which is fine for a 1950's hunting rifle.

dY3Rapo.jpg

I really really, cut the load in my M70 with a new barrel. And I believe that the primary difference in group size between the FN Deluxe and my pre 64 M70, with its new barrel, is the barrel. The barrel on the FN is not as good as the barrel on my pre 64 M70. Can't wait to load more and take the thing to Talladega.

sBD4mHN.jpg

with 150's, this is exactly the velocity I want, and the accuracy is excellent. I have decided that velocities that approach 2800 fps, with a 150 grain bullet in my 270 Win, are over pressure.

s2PeNWg.jpg

I am going to bump this up and try for 2700 fps, currently this is an excellent group.

fiW5v65.jpg

An over pressure load shot great at 300 yards, but was, overpressure

yhqoL5d.jpg

8inhs5s.jpg


TCB3CKS.jpg

There are many half MOA groups inside these 270 round targets.

auPh02q.jpg
 
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If your looking for shifts in poi your doing a ladder test. An ocw test is different and has different goals.
Ocw should 1. Find your maximum charge.
2. Find speed nodes, and 3. show you the consistency of your loads. 4. Is part of a tuning process which also includes a seating depth testing.
Initial testing can be 3 shot groups to gather data and cover a broad area. Once your fine tuning in .1 changes in charge then your validating with 10 shot groups.
 
Ask yourself what the purpose of the OCW is. To find the most accurate load, right? Then, obviously, your target will tell you when you have found the best load = smallest group.

This is absolutely NOT a part of the OCW method.
 
Here’s an example of an OCW analysis I did for someone on another forum several years ago. Group size doesn’t mean much in the OCW test - it’s the relative elevation shift, or lack thereof, between adjacent charge weights.

In this example, the red line is the reference to center all POA’s on the same horizontal line, and the yellow curve passes through the center of each group. You’ll observe, there’s a flat section between 5 and 6, while 1 through 5 is oscillating pretty aggressively, so this test suggests he should load between 5 and 6, and avoid 1-4 or 7-8. Going by group size alone, a shooter might be mislead into loading #4 or #8, even though the group sizes here aren’t statistically representative, and even though the overall test proves those two loads will likely yield significantly more vertical dispersion at mid to long range than the node load.

72DEE878-7997-42AC-9321-7FBCAB5F6333.jpeg
 
This is absolutely NOT a part of the OCW method.

Okay. I'm happily corrected. And thanks for the explanation with figures in your next post. It is very helpful for understanding the point of the ocw test.
 
How do you locate center of a group? Is it the physical center, or the average center? I just dont see any obvious conclusion like I have read about.
 

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If your looking for shifts in poi your doing a ladder test. An ocw test is different and has different goals.
Ocw should 1. Find your maximum charge.
2. Find speed nodes, and 3. show you the consistency of your loads. 4. Is part of a tuning process which also includes a seating depth testing.
Initial testing can be 3 shot groups to gather data and cover a broad area. Once your fine tuning in .1 changes in charge then your validating with 10 shot groups.
I was following Dan newberry's guide, and it differs significantly from your stated goals of the ocw test. I'll probably just go back to my usual and play with seating depth first, then adjust charge.
 
Another thing to look at is your charge weights, the instructions call for:

3. Consult at least three load data sources for maximum charge weight for the powder you've selected. Powder manufacturers are the most reliable source. You must then decide on what your maximum charge will be.

4. Back away from the maximum charge by 7 to 10 percent, and load one test round with this charge. Add 2% to the charge weight, and load another cartridge with that charge. Load a third test cartridge with the next 2% graduation. You will use these three cartridges for sighters, and more importantly to determine pressure tolerance in your individual rifle.

5. Add another 2% or so to the charge level used in cartridge #3 of step 4, and load three rounds with this charge weight. Add .7% to 1% to this charge, and load three more. Add that same graduation again, and load three more. Continue adding the chosen graduation until you have moved ONE increment above your chosen maximum powder charge.

This more often than not leaves me with greater than .2 grain deviations in loads, which then shows a greater impact on POI.
 
There are many half MOA groups inside these 270 round targets.
:D
Here’s an example of an OCW analysis I did for someone on another forum several years ago.

Group size doesn’t mean much in the OCW test - it’s the relative elevation shift, or lack thereof, between adjacent charge weights.
Beautiful explanation of OCW and barrel harmonics! :thumbup:

index.php
 
I was following Dan newberry's guide, and it differs significantly from your stated goals of the ocw test. I'll probably just go back to my usual and play with seating depth first, then adjust charge.
This is what I use the test for. If you have a test that you use to acomplish the same goals I'm comfortable calling it something else. My goals may differ from some publishers goals and that's ok with me. To me the ladder test is to look for vertical dispersion based on charge weight. I dont run the ladder test very often because I dont have ready access to a longer range like 300 yards that make the test easier to read and their for more effective imo.
 
Another thing to look at is your charge weights, the instructions call for:



This more often than not leaves me with greater than .2 grain deviations in loads, which then shows a greater impact on POI.
This is what I use the test for. If you have a test that you use to acomplish the same goals I'm comfortable calling it something else. My goals may differ from some publishers goals and that's ok with me. To me the ladder test is to look for vertical dispersion based on charge weight. I dont run the ladder test very often because I dont have ready access to a longer range like 300 yards that make the test easier to read and their for more effective imo.
I have no idea, this is new to me. According to Newberry, you should see an obvious vertical and horizontal shift. Maybe it is the short stiff barrel that wont whip enough to see significant poi shifts at 100 yards.
 
I have no idea, this is new to me. According to Newberry, you should see an obvious vertical and horizontal shift. Maybe it is the short stiff barrel that wont whip enough to see significant poi shifts at 100 yards.
Range is a major factor in observation of the vertical shift. I like 300 or more for easy reading
 
Another thing to look at is your charge weights, the instructions call for:



This more often than not leaves me with greater than .2 grain deviations in loads, which then shows a greater impact on POI.
Should I modify his percentages to have less groups, but with larger charge deviations?
 
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