Off-duty officer shoots and kills man in cop's own driveway

[Nickotym]

Buzz, give me a break.

How many people drive up to someone's driveway, then park the car and throw thier keys in the glovebox?

It also doesn't matter if no weapon was found in the glove box. If the shootee was dumb enough to make a threatening gesture he goes away in a pine box. If he was doing something legitimate he should have vocalized what he was doing.

I would be willing to bet the shootee had a rap sheet a mile long or else should have been on meds in a hospital.


Edited to add after further thought: If I have someone at gunpoint and tell them to back away and drop their gun, there are only two motions they should do BACK AWAY and DROP THEIR WEAPON. If they come towards me or raise their weapon, they will get shot.

Since the guy in the car was not reaching for the gearshifter, it is pretty safe to guess his plan wasn't to drive away.

 

[Quartus]

You defend your stance on our lack of knowledge of what the gesture was. We know what it was: he reached into his glove compartment.

My bad, buzz - I spaced that part and only noticed the "threatening gesture" part. Comes from reading too quickly while at work.

Whether he was reaching for his gun or his keys, the officer didn't know. That lack of knowledge means that it was at most a potentially threatening gesture, and you aren't allowed to shoot on those.

My further comments still apply. A glove box is a common place to keep a gun, and reaching into one is NOT the action of a person who is complying with an order to leave the property. It IS reasonable to shoot someone under those conditions. buzz, you ought to know by now that I'm NOT one to defend bad shootings by LEOs. If you don't, just ask TBO.


But I don't think that the fact this guy is a LEO really matters here. What matters is the pattern of threatening (for whatever reason - he could have been a banker who denied a loan) and the fact that this pattern was escalated to the point of coming to the man's home and threatening him there, even to the point of refusing to leave when confronted with a gun. That spells "imminent danger" to me.


Hmmm. We don't know if he was in or out of his car. But who puts thier keys in a glove box? Maybe some do, but in this officer's position, I wouldn't wait to see what he pulled out of that glove box.

 

[rayjay]

Quartus

Very well said. If the guy in the drive way was complying to leave he would have left.....period.

A man threatening a banker then reaches into his glove box, the banker might think that he's reaching for paperwork(loan papers)

A man threatening a LEO then ordered to leave AT gun point, then reaches for his glove box, LEO's should take that as a sign of danger. If he was on the side of the road.....WAIT for a weapon to appear then react. Man is in a LEO's drive way threatening him then reaches for something after being told several times to leave at gun point......he's not reaching for a X-mas card folks.

 

[BluesBear]

Paint Chip Syndrome

Was the guy attempting to comply and was reaching into his glove compartment for the keys he'd tossed there?

That statement sounds just as stupid now as it did when I first read it.

I'm just waiting for some one to suggest that perhaps the gear shift for reverse was in the glove box?

 

[Steve in PA]

Any update as to what if anything was found in the glove compartment?

Sure seems to be alot of people with itchy trigger fingers around here

 

[TheeBadOne]

Steve

Does it really matter? You could then say; "The cop put it in there after"...

 

[Quartus]

I matters as much as finding out that the "gun" was a toy gun.


IOW, you can't judge the reasonableness of the act based on information that the shooter didn't have. You have to look at what HE knew at the time.

 

[fiVe]

There is no way we can know all the facts, but I know this:

If I'm ever in a situation where---
1. I'm in another guy's driveway
2. He thinks I am a threat to him
3. He has drawn a gun & ordered me to leave

I'm leaving........and I will tell him so, "OK! Don't Shoot!
I'm leaving now."

Then I will keep my hands visible, STAY AWAY FROM THE
GLOVEBOX, and make my exit post haste.

 

[TheeBadOne]

I suspect the situation evolved this way:

Man is home and notices that a car has driven down his long driveway up to his house and is sitting there looking out of place. Man doesn't recognize car so goes out to see who/what it is (nothing suggesting a threat at this point, so the man is just going out to see what's up, lost, need help, etc).
Man walks up to car when TSHTF! Man recognizes driver as criminal who has made personal threats against Man and now has stalked him to his home (had to stalk/follow as phone/address is unlisted for privacy).
Man tells criminal who has threatened him previously to leave now. Criminal makes more threats and refuses to leave. Man feels threatened. Options, turn and go back inside (crazy driver making threats can do what he wants). Second option, Man is legally armed, produces pistol, tells man to leave again. Whether man begins to back away toward house or not is unknown. Criminal makes threatening gesture reaching toward glove box (quickly? comments made? etc) and Man responds in fear of his own life and that of his family inside the home behind him.

As ususal, no where near enough information in a media article to make a judgement, but nothing I've read so far has a bad odor to it.

JMHO

 

[Quartus]

Yup. And it plays the same way whether the shooter is a cop or not.



ONE POSSIBLE BAD SCENARIO HERE:


As you suggested, with the following variation:


Officer orders trespasser to leave. Trespasser smiles a nasty smile, says something like, "Sure, I'm going. But maybe I'll be back when you aren't home. Maybe when your wife or daugher is home."

Cop knows he can't always be there to protect his family, and this guy knows where he lives. Shoots trespasser to death, makes up story about threatening gesture.


Of course, there's no evidence of that, but it IS a possibility.

And I wouldn't convict him if I were on the jury. That's justifiable homicide in my book. The threat is clear and credible. The fact that it's not imminent makes a legal difference, but not a moral one in my book.

 

[magnumjim]

In Texas it don't matter what happened. The guy is dead and they will take the cops word as to what happened. The cop is home free. I lived in Houston for 15 years and have seen this happen many times.

 

[12 Volt Man]

I agree with the not enough info thing. I do know that if a bad guy ever reaches for his glove box in a situation where I have found it necesary to produce my weapon, it will probably be his last move.

A similar thing happened here in Utah 10 years or so ago. Teenagers run into a grocery store, run out with stolen beer. Hop in to get away car. Cop steps in front of car with weapon drawn. Tells them not to move and keep hands up. Kid reaches down for gear shifter or other unknown reason and gets shot in the head.

You never know with cops. If I am ever pulled over, I will keep my hands on the wheel and advise the officer of every move I am going to make. Especially if I am packing.

 

[XLMiguel]

Looks like a good shoot to me, on the surface, If someone who had previously threatened me in front of witnesses showed up at my place, (the one with clearly posed "No Trespassing" signs) I'd be inclined to believe he was there to act on the threats.

In my VERY limited experience dealing with nervous cops (i.e. one with a drawn gun), it's a real good idea to keep both hands in plain sight, announce your intentions before you do anything, and move REAL slowly and deliberately after the cop agrees to your announced intention to move.

 

[BluesBear]

Bear's Third Law Of Life;

Never Argue With Someone When Your Life Is In Their Hands.

 

[Steve in PA]

Accused stalked killed by officer was unarmed

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2302116


Accused stalked killed by officer was unarmed

Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

A Montgomery County man accused of stalking a Houston police lieutenant was unarmed when the off-duty lieutenant shot him to death Monday, detectives said Wednesday.

A search of the car in which 25-year-old Kevin Leonard Lunsford was sitting turned up no weapons, said Montgomery County Sheriff's Lt. Rand Henderson. Detectives would not say, however, where or how many times Lunsford was shot.

Lt. Eric D. Hillman, assigned to the Houston Police Department's Kingwood station, shot Lunsford after he disregarded a "No Trespassing" sign and drove on to the officer's property in Cut and Shoot around 6 p.m. Monday, sheriff's detectives said. They said Hillman, who had told Lunsford he was under arrest for trespassing, fired after Lunsford moved toward his glove compartment.

Hillman, who also is a lawyer, had been harassed in recent days after Lunsford's wife sought legal advice from him about ending her marriage or pursuing criminal charges, said a source familiar with the investigation. Hillman had contacted several agencies for help, his attorney said, although Lunsford had no arrest record or restraining orders in Harris or Montgomery counties.

Lunsford's family could not be located for comment.

Hillman, a 21-year HPD veteran who previously served as a legal adviser in the police chief's office, has a clean record. His personnel file contains numerous letters of commendation, many praising the courses he taught on cultural diversity and racial profiling.

Hillman's attorney, Brett Ligon of the Houston Police Officers Union, said Hillman and his wife were in their truck when Lunsford arrived and were unable to back up because of a ravine.

"He's at this point where he can't back up, his wife is with him, and this stalker he's trying to get protection from is right there on him," Ligon said.

 

[BluesBear]

... drove on to the officer's property in Cut and Shoot ...

[snicker]
Perhaps he should have threatened someone who lived in Scream and Run.
[/snicker]

 

[P95Carry]

As ever - I do wonder just how good or truthful the reporting was - but be that as it may ..... it seems more justified than not.

Surely .................. anyone, and I mean anyone ... when covered by another's gun (unless BG's gun in which case you do whatever you can) .... is able to avoid injury or death by not being stoopid. That means .... hands in clear view ..... NO threatening gestures.

I sure as hell, if I wanna get home in one piece - will do everything possible to make it totally clear, that my hands are nowhere near - anything!! If I really needed to get something like wallet .. I would ask ...... and be VERY deliberate and careful in so doing.

Or is this paranoia?? Not to me, when it's my a$$ on the line.

 

[Steve in PA]

LOL.......oh thats bad......

 

[Steve in PA]

We could pick apart this story in the comfort of our homes, which is a good thing, because we all should use this as a learning tool. Which is why I post and respond to these types of threads. Everyone can learn something.

Do I think the shooting was justified??? Mmmmmm.....maybe because I'm a LEO Firearms Instructor I see a few holes (no pun intended) in the shooting. Again, I have that option sitting here reading the medias reports.

The latest article says the officer and his wife were in their truck and had no where to go. SHould the guy have come onto the property? Hell no. Should he have left? Hell yeah.

I don't know what laws or requirements are taught in Texas for the use of deadly force, especially for a LEO. But I don't think they were met, had this happended in PA.

Did the guy have the ability to cause death or serious bodily injury? Don't think so since he had nothing in his hands, even before he made the threatening gesture towards the glove compartment.

Did the guy have the opportunity? Ditto

Immediate fear of death or SBI??? Ditto

Alot of emphasis is being placed on this threatening gesture. Ok, maybe he was in fear because of the movement, but that in itself doesn't give you the green light to fire. Was the guy reaching for his keys? Doubt it. A camera......a cell phone??? Maybe a weapon. But I'm not going to shoot someone not knowing whether or not there is a weapon in their hands. Am I going to have my weapon drawn and pointed at this guy? You better believe it.

Which is why we do shoot/no shoot scenarios. Have targets pop up with a weapon in their hand.....then have targets pop up holding a cell phone, beer can......anything but a weapon. Stress is induced....decisions must be made.....and you better be right.

Being that the guy ws unarmed, I feel bad for the LEO. I'm sure every civil attorney in the book is dialing up the dead persons family right now. Being sued civilly doesn't mean you did anything criminally wrong of course. Its a crappy situation for everyone involved.

 

[bfason]

They'll run it past a grand jury, the officer will be given the benefit of any doubts, and it will be filed away under DSAF (Did Society A Favor). After all, this *is* Texas.

 

[Carlos]

The clown is exactly where he should be:

TAKING A DIRT NAP!!!!