Big Boomer
Member
If you leave your brass behind, you could always "smash" them and say here ya go 
Off to the range, or so I thought!
- Thread starter justin 561
- Start date
- Status
bogie
Member
I'll take a guess at "why."
Too many folks who buy AKs and SKS rifles seem to think that they now own the ticket for "spray and pray." Guess what, campers... Y'all ruin a lot of fun for other folks... When one of those folks is at my club, they think they're "shooting into the ground" but those bullets skip... And they tear up target frames and gear that folks KNOW not to shoot.
I'll bet that is their reason. That, and they hate cleaning up the steelcase trash for free.
Too many folks who buy AKs and SKS rifles seem to think that they now own the ticket for "spray and pray." Guess what, campers... Y'all ruin a lot of fun for other folks... When one of those folks is at my club, they think they're "shooting into the ground" but those bullets skip... And they tear up target frames and gear that folks KNOW not to shoot.
I'll bet that is their reason. That, and they hate cleaning up the steelcase trash for free.
jackdanson
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 859
Yep, bad logic on their part though. They just made a great argument for gun control. If some people can't handle it ban everyone.
WinchesterAA
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2006
- Messages
- 870
Call it a hunch, but I bet it has something to do with steel cased ammo being the majority of what x39 shooters shoot.
Steel cases are labeled as non-reloadable, which is why they want your brass anyway. Ontop of that, it doesn't fetch much of a price for scraps, so considering the two downsides of steelcased ammo you'd be required to sort through collected brass to separate steel from brass which takes a lot of time.
Combine that additionally with the fact that people usually shoot a LOT of steel cased ammo at a time, which means there'll be a LOT of sorting to do. Complicates things, and is understandable but lame.
My favorite outdoor range bans steel cased ammo, but I'm friends with the owner and I used to bring a brass (steel I guess) catcher to ensure no steel cases would make it to the dirt upon his approval.
Steel cases are labeled as non-reloadable, which is why they want your brass anyway. Ontop of that, it doesn't fetch much of a price for scraps, so considering the two downsides of steelcased ammo you'd be required to sort through collected brass to separate steel from brass which takes a lot of time.
Combine that additionally with the fact that people usually shoot a LOT of steel cased ammo at a time, which means there'll be a LOT of sorting to do. Complicates things, and is understandable but lame.
My favorite outdoor range bans steel cased ammo, but I'm friends with the owner and I used to bring a brass (steel I guess) catcher to ensure no steel cases would make it to the dirt upon his approval.
variablebinary
Member
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2007
- Messages
- 105
Wow. that sucks. I would have been so pissed after the gas use.
I'm going to wager its because of steel cases normally associated with those weapons
Though, what happens when Masada, XCR and SCAR owners show up with a case of wolf and conversion kits.
That will throw em for a loop
I'm going to wager its because of steel cases normally associated with those weapons
Though, what happens when Masada, XCR and SCAR owners show up with a case of wolf and conversion kits.
That will throw em for a loop
Jeremy2171
Member
Ha! I laugh at the ranges that say you can't take brass off the range. Just try and stop me from taking MY brass off the range.
One time a local range officer told me that I wasn't allowed to brass off the line. I asked why not (since I load a lot of wierd calibers that use .30 cent + cases) and he said because that's our rules. I said "yeah, right" picked up my brass and kept shooting. He just looked at me funny but never said anything about it. Now after 10 years I still take MY brass home and sometimes they GIVE me brass in the odd calibers because they know I'll use it.
I'd like to see those guys STEAL my brass. Can you say lawsuit? Its like going to the mall and saying once you park your car and go inside its mall property.......
One time a local range officer told me that I wasn't allowed to brass off the line. I asked why not (since I load a lot of wierd calibers that use .30 cent + cases) and he said because that's our rules. I said "yeah, right" picked up my brass and kept shooting. He just looked at me funny but never said anything about it. Now after 10 years I still take MY brass home and sometimes they GIVE me brass in the odd calibers because they know I'll use it.
I'd like to see those guys STEAL my brass. Can you say lawsuit? Its like going to the mall and saying once you park your car and go inside its mall property.......
Dain Bramage
Member
That big Russian kid, Simon Kalashnikov picked on them in grade school.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
A. If the restriction is on steel-cased ammo, then it should say "no steel cased ammo", not "no SKSs or AKs". Any rifle can shoot steel cased ammo and many AR shooters shoot it. This would make sense if they recover money from the sale of scrap brass, but the rule should be consistent and against steel cases, not gun design types.
B. If the restriction is on steel-core ammo (this is a restriction that would actually make sense because it tears up the steel targets), then it should say "no steel core ammo" and they should run a magnet over your ammo like every other range in America does, to double check. Nothing to do with gun type.
C. If the restriction is on 7.62x39, then they should say that - it's not - clearly, Mini-30s are not banned.
So, bottom line, it's a bias against Russian weapons. My guess would be that it's some old fart who owns the range who has a personal hatred of all things ruskie due to the old cold war mentality. How do I count the number of different ways that I could and would tell them to pound sand about their rule and their range if it was me. Real simple - boycott and let them know why. At a minimum, they should be telling you WHY their rule is as such.
B. If the restriction is on steel-core ammo (this is a restriction that would actually make sense because it tears up the steel targets), then it should say "no steel core ammo" and they should run a magnet over your ammo like every other range in America does, to double check. Nothing to do with gun type.
C. If the restriction is on 7.62x39, then they should say that - it's not - clearly, Mini-30s are not banned.
So, bottom line, it's a bias against Russian weapons. My guess would be that it's some old fart who owns the range who has a personal hatred of all things ruskie due to the old cold war mentality. How do I count the number of different ways that I could and would tell them to pound sand about their rule and their range if it was me. Real simple - boycott and let them know why. At a minimum, they should be telling you WHY their rule is as such.
transformerguru
Member
I personally think it is a sad story. We as gun owners spend ALOT of money for our hobby, and to have ranges say we cannot use their range for no other reason stated other that we don't want them here is a travesty. I can understand the steel case argument and the steel core argument, but no legitimate reason. He is right, I wouldn't set foot on that premises again either.
The Gunsmith
Member
What would you do?
From : South Florida Shooting Sports
Gosh fellas where do I start? After reading this thread of posts it took me a few moments to stop laughing. Let me try and answer as many issues as I can remember. If I leave something out I’m probably not evading the issue I just did not remember your post or possibly did not care enough to respond.
I also encourage some of you after reading this to go back through and read this entire thread and see how ridiculous many of you look. Now go make yourselves a sandwich, get something cold to drink and find a comfortable chair this make take some of you a while to read. Some of you may even need to read this a few times.
First of all I believe in our Second Amendment right to own firearms of any kind even AK’s and SKS’s as well as many other cheaply made poor excuses for firearms. If a person can only afford a cheap piece of crap for protection then by all means buy one.
I also don’t believe that the Second Amendment guarantees your right to shoot whatever you want at a private business or range. We have the 1st Ammendment as expressed on this board but if you want to put it in the paper you have to pay them for it and play by their rules so there you go?
The first question many of you have is why are steel or aluminum projectiles or casings banned from so many ranges.
1. The steel core ammunition destroys the back stops at indoor ranges costing nearly $10,000-20,000 per lane to fix.
2. Most ranges if they are smart recycle their brass for either scrap or to sell the empty casings for reloading. If the recyclers see very much steel or aluminum in the buckets they will pay the range half of the going rate for brass. So then the range has to pay their staff to go through and sort the brass. Who cares many of you say? The range has to make money to stay in business so if they don’t make some there they will have to make it up somewhere, so you tell me where would be acceptable?
3. As Gunsmiths we dig steel or aluminum cases out of the chambers of firearms about ten to one for brass so there is definitely a safety issue not to mention what a chamber looks like after shooting a bunch of steel ammunition.
The next question is why do ranges ban these weapons? If you guys spend so much money at these ranges then why would an ongoing business concern that is there to make a profit alienate a group of customers? Let’s analyze this for a moment. Most of you probably bought your rifle on line or at a gun show instead of the gun range so you could save $20.00. Then you buy all of the accessories and ammunition the same way. So now all you are giving the range is the range fee to shoot. Let me bring you in on a little secret, no range could stay in business on range fees alone. If they did not sell ammunition or guns and accessories it would cost you more than $100.00 to shoot at most of them. The few ranges in our area that let you shoot ammo bought from somewhere else went out of business.
I have not seen any range owners driving their Bentleys to their Palm Beach mansions so they can not be making that much money. Most range owners are in the business just because they also enjoy the shooting sports but they still have to make enough money to stay in business. Do any of you work for free? Do any of you know how much it costs to run a business like this? I will tell you it is staggering!
The real problem is the AK SKS shooter however. I will let you know what I have experienced. First many of the shooters buy one box of range ammo and smuggle in their steel core ammo and proceed to tear up the back stops. Now 7.62X39 is about the only ammunition that is readily available in steel core so that is where the problem comes from. Sometimes it is more difficult to find non-steel core ammo than anything else. Then when the shooters get bored punching holes in paper they start shooting the empty casings on the floor. When that looses it’s excitement they start shooting the target hangers so they can shoot a moving target.
At the outdoor range the game has been lets see how many shots it takes to shoot the target frame in half, then it goes into lets see if the guy next to me can tell I am shooting at his target. When that got old it turned into lets see if we can hit the aerial fiber optic lines behind the range and then laugh like Beavus and Butthead when the utility company shows up in a helicopter to shut down the range. Not to mention how they find it funny when their empties hit the person or the firearm next to them because most of their guns eject their empty sideways instead of forward like most M1’s and AR’s.
Now if we analyze this we should be able to learn that many of these shooters cost the range far more than their measly range fee provides.
Now some of you may be shocked at this behavior but many of you have either witnessed this yourself or are as guilty as sin yourself. The problem is more of the shooters do this than don’t so it’s not just a small percentage it’s the majority.
As far as our range master yelling at anyone, I personally have never seen or heard of it and he is one of the nicest guys I know so if you got him to yell at you then I would say you are a real piece of work. So some of the AK SKS shooters in our area are great people and would follow the range rules and think of the other shooters but if I let that small percentage shoot then my nice range master would be stuck arguing with the people that could not follow the rules. I just simply don’t want him to have to worry about it.
The no AK SKS rule is posted on our website and in multiple places on our range and where you sign in so if it is a surprise than the joke is on you. Learn to pay attention you will be surprised less in life.
$600 dollars per household may be too much for some people to pony up with to join our club but it’s not meant for everyone. But let’s look at this also. For this fee you get to use the rifle and pistol range as much as the household members want for no additional charge, 20 free rounds of trap, skeet or 5 stand, reduced ammunition costs, member prices on all of the items in the pro shop, discounts on gunsmithing, $15 transfers, no too mention the use of some very nice buildings and facilities we are building for our members. We are in fact trying to create a hi-end country club type environment. If that is not what you are looking for and that is too much for your budget then we are just simply not the place for you. If it was not for the snobby trap and skeet shooters that join our club our range simply would not exist because a rifle and pistol only range could never make enough money to support itself in our area with the price of land, insurance and other fixed overhead costs. So if you want to keep a range to shoot at be nice to even the snobby shotgun shooters.
We do not stop shooters from collecting their own brass to reload. We even give extra to the shooters we like.
Many of you openly admitted to breaking or circumventing range rules or policies and you wonder why there is a problem. Did any of you notice how few people on this board are from our area? This is really not a big problem for us. As a rule the AK SKS shooter spends the least amount of money at a range and creates the biggest hassle and cost so it is not too hard of a business decision to make.
As a gunsmith shop we are asked to make their AK’s look cool, not perform better, why would that be,..hmmmm?
Then they complain about $35.00 to install a part on a gun they bought on the internet and then come back and complain their gun does not work right and want us to fix all of their problems with their cheap communist made gun. This is why we stopped working on these types of guns along time ago. It simply was not worth the hassle.
The way the members on this board expressed their opinions and sent their emails profoundly illustrates the core reason for the rule against these guns. And frankly I am sick of arguing with them which is why I do not go into great detail when I responded to many of your obvious fishing expeditions. It’s just not worth it. Let’s look at the fine examples of your cowardly group who would not identify themselves…
First Name : Atlantic
Last Name : Fire
Address Street 1 :
Address Street 2 :
City :
Zip Code :
State : AL
Daytime Phone :
Evening Phone :
Email :
Comments : Found a post on THR about your shop with a member complaining about not be allowed to shot cretin type of guns at your range and being sent away. You guys some kind of communist or something? Smells like Florida strikes again!
First Name :
Last Name :
Address Street 1 :
Address Street 2 :
City :
Zip Code :
State : AL
Daytime Phone :
Evening Phone :
Email :
Comments : No ak47's allowed, what kind of stupid ****ing rule is that
Great job promoting your group guys, what was I thinking? Boy I just would love to have these guys at my range they sound really nice!
Now onto the accusations of us being communists for our rule. Do any of you understand how ridiculous this statement is. First, we are exercising our American right of free trade and business by setting our own rules. Second these firearms are made by communists, for communists and communists profit when you buy them. The ammunition is also made by communists for communists and communists profit from it when you buy it! Have any of you thought that these weapons are made by governments that do not care if the troops they are made for ever even come home? So who is supporting communism?
Now onto the hatred of the gun itself. We have many customers that are veterans who were either shot themselves or witnessed their friends shot and killed by these weapons who really just don’t like to be reminded of them at all. I would honestly ban them from my range for this reason alone if they asked me to. I have also noticed the vast majority of AK owners in our area are not vets and have felt no obligation to serve their country.
Another observation is that I have not met any AK SKS owners helping on political campaigns or donating their time and money to help preserve our second amendment rights or public places to shoot. They just sit on the internet and complain. When you ask many of them to simply join the NRA you would think you asked them to give up a lung. With out the NRA none of us would even be able to own a slingshot. Anybody feeling convicted yet?
So what’s the solution? If you are lucky enough to have a range that lets you shoot you communist icon be the most courteous person there, be overly polite, if you see someone shooting one of your guns and being a butthead go over to him and straighten him out before he screws it up for everyone. Spend your money at the range even if it costs a few dollars more at least then the business owners will have a difficult decision to make.
You could also pool all of your money, buy your own land, get all of your permits, build your own range and ban everyone that does not own an AK or SKS.
I personally have nothing against the guns. For two hundred bucks you get more than you pay for. If we had not had the experiences we have had we would not have the rule. I don’t see how that makes us the foul things that have been said about us or that it some how makes us communists.
So honestly who is to blame here?:banghead:
Jeff
South Florida Shooting Sports
From : South Florida Shooting Sports
Gosh fellas where do I start? After reading this thread of posts it took me a few moments to stop laughing. Let me try and answer as many issues as I can remember. If I leave something out I’m probably not evading the issue I just did not remember your post or possibly did not care enough to respond.
I also encourage some of you after reading this to go back through and read this entire thread and see how ridiculous many of you look. Now go make yourselves a sandwich, get something cold to drink and find a comfortable chair this make take some of you a while to read. Some of you may even need to read this a few times.
First of all I believe in our Second Amendment right to own firearms of any kind even AK’s and SKS’s as well as many other cheaply made poor excuses for firearms. If a person can only afford a cheap piece of crap for protection then by all means buy one.
I also don’t believe that the Second Amendment guarantees your right to shoot whatever you want at a private business or range. We have the 1st Ammendment as expressed on this board but if you want to put it in the paper you have to pay them for it and play by their rules so there you go?
The first question many of you have is why are steel or aluminum projectiles or casings banned from so many ranges.
1. The steel core ammunition destroys the back stops at indoor ranges costing nearly $10,000-20,000 per lane to fix.
2. Most ranges if they are smart recycle their brass for either scrap or to sell the empty casings for reloading. If the recyclers see very much steel or aluminum in the buckets they will pay the range half of the going rate for brass. So then the range has to pay their staff to go through and sort the brass. Who cares many of you say? The range has to make money to stay in business so if they don’t make some there they will have to make it up somewhere, so you tell me where would be acceptable?
3. As Gunsmiths we dig steel or aluminum cases out of the chambers of firearms about ten to one for brass so there is definitely a safety issue not to mention what a chamber looks like after shooting a bunch of steel ammunition.
The next question is why do ranges ban these weapons? If you guys spend so much money at these ranges then why would an ongoing business concern that is there to make a profit alienate a group of customers? Let’s analyze this for a moment. Most of you probably bought your rifle on line or at a gun show instead of the gun range so you could save $20.00. Then you buy all of the accessories and ammunition the same way. So now all you are giving the range is the range fee to shoot. Let me bring you in on a little secret, no range could stay in business on range fees alone. If they did not sell ammunition or guns and accessories it would cost you more than $100.00 to shoot at most of them. The few ranges in our area that let you shoot ammo bought from somewhere else went out of business.
I have not seen any range owners driving their Bentleys to their Palm Beach mansions so they can not be making that much money. Most range owners are in the business just because they also enjoy the shooting sports but they still have to make enough money to stay in business. Do any of you work for free? Do any of you know how much it costs to run a business like this? I will tell you it is staggering!
The real problem is the AK SKS shooter however. I will let you know what I have experienced. First many of the shooters buy one box of range ammo and smuggle in their steel core ammo and proceed to tear up the back stops. Now 7.62X39 is about the only ammunition that is readily available in steel core so that is where the problem comes from. Sometimes it is more difficult to find non-steel core ammo than anything else. Then when the shooters get bored punching holes in paper they start shooting the empty casings on the floor. When that looses it’s excitement they start shooting the target hangers so they can shoot a moving target.
At the outdoor range the game has been lets see how many shots it takes to shoot the target frame in half, then it goes into lets see if the guy next to me can tell I am shooting at his target. When that got old it turned into lets see if we can hit the aerial fiber optic lines behind the range and then laugh like Beavus and Butthead when the utility company shows up in a helicopter to shut down the range. Not to mention how they find it funny when their empties hit the person or the firearm next to them because most of their guns eject their empty sideways instead of forward like most M1’s and AR’s.
Now if we analyze this we should be able to learn that many of these shooters cost the range far more than their measly range fee provides.
Now some of you may be shocked at this behavior but many of you have either witnessed this yourself or are as guilty as sin yourself. The problem is more of the shooters do this than don’t so it’s not just a small percentage it’s the majority.
As far as our range master yelling at anyone, I personally have never seen or heard of it and he is one of the nicest guys I know so if you got him to yell at you then I would say you are a real piece of work. So some of the AK SKS shooters in our area are great people and would follow the range rules and think of the other shooters but if I let that small percentage shoot then my nice range master would be stuck arguing with the people that could not follow the rules. I just simply don’t want him to have to worry about it.
The no AK SKS rule is posted on our website and in multiple places on our range and where you sign in so if it is a surprise than the joke is on you. Learn to pay attention you will be surprised less in life.
$600 dollars per household may be too much for some people to pony up with to join our club but it’s not meant for everyone. But let’s look at this also. For this fee you get to use the rifle and pistol range as much as the household members want for no additional charge, 20 free rounds of trap, skeet or 5 stand, reduced ammunition costs, member prices on all of the items in the pro shop, discounts on gunsmithing, $15 transfers, no too mention the use of some very nice buildings and facilities we are building for our members. We are in fact trying to create a hi-end country club type environment. If that is not what you are looking for and that is too much for your budget then we are just simply not the place for you. If it was not for the snobby trap and skeet shooters that join our club our range simply would not exist because a rifle and pistol only range could never make enough money to support itself in our area with the price of land, insurance and other fixed overhead costs. So if you want to keep a range to shoot at be nice to even the snobby shotgun shooters.
We do not stop shooters from collecting their own brass to reload. We even give extra to the shooters we like.
Many of you openly admitted to breaking or circumventing range rules or policies and you wonder why there is a problem. Did any of you notice how few people on this board are from our area? This is really not a big problem for us. As a rule the AK SKS shooter spends the least amount of money at a range and creates the biggest hassle and cost so it is not too hard of a business decision to make.
As a gunsmith shop we are asked to make their AK’s look cool, not perform better, why would that be,..hmmmm?
Then they complain about $35.00 to install a part on a gun they bought on the internet and then come back and complain their gun does not work right and want us to fix all of their problems with their cheap communist made gun. This is why we stopped working on these types of guns along time ago. It simply was not worth the hassle.
The way the members on this board expressed their opinions and sent their emails profoundly illustrates the core reason for the rule against these guns. And frankly I am sick of arguing with them which is why I do not go into great detail when I responded to many of your obvious fishing expeditions. It’s just not worth it. Let’s look at the fine examples of your cowardly group who would not identify themselves…
First Name : Atlantic
Last Name : Fire
Address Street 1 :
Address Street 2 :
City :
Zip Code :
State : AL
Daytime Phone :
Evening Phone :
Email :
Comments : Found a post on THR about your shop with a member complaining about not be allowed to shot cretin type of guns at your range and being sent away. You guys some kind of communist or something? Smells like Florida strikes again!
First Name :
Last Name :
Address Street 1 :
Address Street 2 :
City :
Zip Code :
State : AL
Daytime Phone :
Evening Phone :
Email :
Comments : No ak47's allowed, what kind of stupid ****ing rule is that
Great job promoting your group guys, what was I thinking? Boy I just would love to have these guys at my range they sound really nice!
Now onto the accusations of us being communists for our rule. Do any of you understand how ridiculous this statement is. First, we are exercising our American right of free trade and business by setting our own rules. Second these firearms are made by communists, for communists and communists profit when you buy them. The ammunition is also made by communists for communists and communists profit from it when you buy it! Have any of you thought that these weapons are made by governments that do not care if the troops they are made for ever even come home? So who is supporting communism?
Now onto the hatred of the gun itself. We have many customers that are veterans who were either shot themselves or witnessed their friends shot and killed by these weapons who really just don’t like to be reminded of them at all. I would honestly ban them from my range for this reason alone if they asked me to. I have also noticed the vast majority of AK owners in our area are not vets and have felt no obligation to serve their country.
Another observation is that I have not met any AK SKS owners helping on political campaigns or donating their time and money to help preserve our second amendment rights or public places to shoot. They just sit on the internet and complain. When you ask many of them to simply join the NRA you would think you asked them to give up a lung. With out the NRA none of us would even be able to own a slingshot. Anybody feeling convicted yet?
So what’s the solution? If you are lucky enough to have a range that lets you shoot you communist icon be the most courteous person there, be overly polite, if you see someone shooting one of your guns and being a butthead go over to him and straighten him out before he screws it up for everyone. Spend your money at the range even if it costs a few dollars more at least then the business owners will have a difficult decision to make.
You could also pool all of your money, buy your own land, get all of your permits, build your own range and ban everyone that does not own an AK or SKS.
I personally have nothing against the guns. For two hundred bucks you get more than you pay for. If we had not had the experiences we have had we would not have the rule. I don’t see how that makes us the foul things that have been said about us or that it some how makes us communists.
So honestly who is to blame here?:banghead:
Jeff
South Florida Shooting Sports
"Another observation is that I have not met any AK SKS owners helping on political campaigns or donating their time and money to help preserve our second amendment rights or public places to shoot."
Well, I own both guns and am actively involved in SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus), as well as donating to the NRA and campaigning to allow CC in State and National Parks. I think your statement is pretty narrow minded considering the vast amount of "Communist weapon" owners.
I'm sure your rebuttal will be that you stated you "had never met," not implied that all AK/SKS owners fall into that category. However, while not said it was implied from your post. Good luck w/ the business...
BTW, would I be allowed to shoot my M44 at your range?
Well, I own both guns and am actively involved in SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus), as well as donating to the NRA and campaigning to allow CC in State and National Parks. I think your statement is pretty narrow minded considering the vast amount of "Communist weapon" owners.
I'm sure your rebuttal will be that you stated you "had never met," not implied that all AK/SKS owners fall into that category. However, while not said it was implied from your post. Good luck w/ the business...
BTW, would I be allowed to shoot my M44 at your range?
grilledcheese
Member
Wow. Where to start...
First, I concur, it's your business and you can run it any way you choose.
Next, unless I buy Chinese surplus ammunition (which I don't think is possible anymore), I am not supporting communism. There are no communist countries left in Europe.
I'm guessing it's not okay to shoot K98s and Arisakas at your range. There are still a great many WWII vets around.
I could go on, but I'll leave the rest to my fellow forum members.
Jeffrey (no, not that one)
First, I concur, it's your business and you can run it any way you choose.
Next, unless I buy Chinese surplus ammunition (which I don't think is possible anymore), I am not supporting communism. There are no communist countries left in Europe.
I'm guessing it's not okay to shoot K98s and Arisakas at your range. There are still a great many WWII vets around.
I could go on, but I'll leave the rest to my fellow forum members.
Jeffrey (no, not that one)
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