Betty
Member
I am so utterly speechless over this incident.
Officer cuts off woman's finger
- Thread starter Daniel T
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I am so utterly speechless over this incident.
Daniel T
Member
Morgan:
Well, I wouldn't attempt a disarm in every situation. You should adapt to circumstances. A fully capable person in the same situation with a knife would be far more dangerous than a crippled old lady.
Yeah, I know what the goggles would be for. My point is that it still wouldn't be an equal situation, but you seem to agree, so there's no point in harping on the issue.
Well, we can look at what the cop wrote in his report, which was that he used the knife "to speed up" the cuffing process. Doesn't sound like he thought she was armed. I'm curious though: what should happen when a suspect is being cuffed, but has a heavy coat on? Is it a normal procedure to destroy their clothes to cuff them?
You mean, besides killing the old woman?
Well, I wouldn't attempt a disarm in every situation. You should adapt to circumstances. A fully capable person in the same situation with a knife would be far more dangerous than a crippled old lady.
Yeah, I know what the goggles would be for. My point is that it still wouldn't be an equal situation, but you seem to agree, so there's no point in harping on the issue.
Well, we can look at what the cop wrote in his report, which was that he used the knife "to speed up" the cuffing process. Doesn't sound like he thought she was armed. I'm curious though: what should happen when a suspect is being cuffed, but has a heavy coat on? Is it a normal procedure to destroy their clothes to cuff them?
You mean, besides killing the old woman?
Sergeant Bob
Member
Headline.....79 Year Old, Senile, Arthritic, Deaf Granny goes on 3 Room Killing Spree!!
Trisha
Member
To demistify and deconstruct the stereotype of LEO's being "jackbooted thugs," over a decade ago, I began seeing LEO's as people - and to my surprise , they are.
Most are overwhelmingly good, some are not - and a few are nightmares living the worst to be found under the classification of "abuse of power."
As Susan is a medic with the local Rescue service and I'm an unpaid non-medical volunteer, it's now come full circle - and most of our friends and aquaintences are in emergency services.
Yep - I know this is digressing a bit, but I have to agree with Morgan:
Unless you were there as a sober, calm completely objective observer, likely as not you'll never know what went down.
Does the headline make my stomach turn over? You bet - but then I remember that, given the chance, the media portrays nearly everything a gun owner does or says in the worst possible light, yes?
spacemanspiff, a LEO rarely has as much unarmed combat training as any given 6-month student in martial arts. I know it's safer to say "It's their job," but if you think you could do a better job, go get your POST certification and show everyone how it's done, right?
Susan and I have great delight in obliging our Deputies with demonstrations of "how would you handle this..." at full-speed (on soft ground when possible), pulling back a little on the power so as not to break/dislocate anything. It gets even more fun when the rookie feels a little more confident with me (Susan has quite a reputation after all these years...)...
pax, I agree with you, too: if I saw nothing to certify I was dealing with a LEO, the person would get both barrels of my Model 1 in the face.
To those of you who have knee-jerk reflexes against anybody with a badge: walk a couple miles in their shoes.
Trisha
Most are overwhelmingly good, some are not - and a few are nightmares living the worst to be found under the classification of "abuse of power."
As Susan is a medic with the local Rescue service and I'm an unpaid non-medical volunteer, it's now come full circle - and most of our friends and aquaintences are in emergency services.
Yep - I know this is digressing a bit, but I have to agree with Morgan:
Unless you were there as a sober, calm completely objective observer, likely as not you'll never know what went down.
Does the headline make my stomach turn over? You bet - but then I remember that, given the chance, the media portrays nearly everything a gun owner does or says in the worst possible light, yes?
spacemanspiff, a LEO rarely has as much unarmed combat training as any given 6-month student in martial arts. I know it's safer to say "It's their job," but if you think you could do a better job, go get your POST certification and show everyone how it's done, right?
Susan and I have great delight in obliging our Deputies with demonstrations of "how would you handle this..." at full-speed (on soft ground when possible), pulling back a little on the power so as not to break/dislocate anything. It gets even more fun when the rookie feels a little more confident with me (Susan has quite a reputation after all these years...)...
pax, I agree with you, too: if I saw nothing to certify I was dealing with a LEO, the person would get both barrels of my Model 1 in the face.
To those of you who have knee-jerk reflexes against anybody with a badge: walk a couple miles in their shoes.
Trisha
Tamara
Senior Member
Trisha,
"Anybody"? Nah, only those who run around cutting folks fingers off and zapping septuagenarians...
"Anybody"? Nah, only those who run around cutting folks fingers off and zapping septuagenarians...
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
well that was my question. i have no idea how much hand-to-hand training they recieve. nor do i know how much practice they have with threat assessment.
nor do i have any ill feelings towards LEO, as they are human and do make mistakes. but we are human too, are we not? and are we as gunowners not encouraged and even expected to be a cut above the rest? what if it was you or me who had to fend off an attack from a elderly knife weilding assailant? if we shot them would we not be crucified for killing what we thought was a threat on our life, but was actually just grandma suffering the effects of old age?
LEO get a bad rap and suffer the consequences of the few who are not fit for the job. if only they could all have been trained by the likes of Lawdog or any other LEO who posts on these forums.
Pendragon
Member
It is 100% inappropriate to draw a knife while trying to arrest someone.
You might as well arrest people with a gun to their head and your finger in the trigger. Its the same thing.
This cop is an idiot - he had no business trying to use a deadly weapon to "speed up" an arrest on an unarmed person who already has one hand cuffed.
He should have used a chemical agent or a pain hold.
This is the definition of excessive force and criminal negligence.
She should get 7 figures, he should do time.
You might as well arrest people with a gun to their head and your finger in the trigger. Its the same thing.
This cop is an idiot - he had no business trying to use a deadly weapon to "speed up" an arrest on an unarmed person who already has one hand cuffed.
He should have used a chemical agent or a pain hold.
This is the definition of excessive force and criminal negligence.
She should get 7 figures, he should do time.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
this is the kind of tactic i'd begrudgingly expect from a mall ninja, not a Law Enforcement Officer.
Phyphor
Member
"if only they could all have been trained by the likes of Lawdog or any other LEO who posts on these forums."
I wouldn't wish that mall ninja on Lawdog, or any of the other LEOs on this board. Besides, can you just imagine the stories he'd tell about training that guy? No doubt there'd be many 'sighs' popping up. :banghead:
I wouldn't wish that mall ninja on Lawdog, or any of the other LEOs on this board. Besides, can you just imagine the stories he'd tell about training that guy? No doubt there'd be many 'sighs' popping up. :banghead:
Mike Irwin
Member
Well, at least he didn't shoot her dog. That's all I can say...
DeltaElite
Member
LMAO, yah then they would be in real trouble.
2nd Amendment
member
OK, I am not going to elaborate on this so just do not ask. Has anyone ever seen a persons finger chopped off? It's not like cutting a steak. It isn't like slicing off a chunk of cheese.
To lop off someones finger, even with a sharp knife, you have to WANT to do it. And be willing to work at it. And get messy...especially when the victim isn't just standing there saying "cut me, Baby".
The cop chopped off her finger. There is no accident here. There's a considered decision to inflict permanent damage on a weaker individual. For those saying "You weren't there" you're correct. You weren't.
I have been.
I hope they fry the bastard.
To lop off someones finger, even with a sharp knife, you have to WANT to do it. And be willing to work at it. And get messy...especially when the victim isn't just standing there saying "cut me, Baby".
The cop chopped off her finger. There is no accident here. There's a considered decision to inflict permanent damage on a weaker individual. For those saying "You weren't there" you're correct. You weren't.
I have been.
I hope they fry the bastard.
Mike Irwin
Member
"Has anyone ever seen a persons finger chopped off?"
Individual finger? No.
Hand? Yes.
Arm? At the elbow? Yes.
Head? Yes.
Individual finger? No.
Hand? Yes.
Arm? At the elbow? Yes.
Head? Yes.
2nd Amendment
member
Head?
I don't even wanna know.
I don't even wanna know.
Mike Irwin
Member
2nd Amendment,
In order:
Auto accident (always listen to your Mother when she says keep your hands inside the car!)
Manure auger (but that was more ripping than chopping...)
Auto accident (Is Ms. Mansfield in the house?)
In order:
Auto accident (always listen to your Mother when she says keep your hands inside the car!)
Manure auger (but that was more ripping than chopping...)
Auto accident (Is Ms. Mansfield in the house?)
sm
member
Granted I wasn't there, however I have dealt with senile dementia in a clinical setting--yeah things can get wierd, but not to the point of shooting. Two people can remove scissors and a third can give a shot. (meds)
I've been in the main OR, takes a bit to remove a limb, even a finger. Just how MUCH force and pressure does "removal of a sleeve" require...dunno, seen a bunch of stuff in surgery, just ain't adding up in my mind.
I've been in the main OR, takes a bit to remove a limb, even a finger. Just how MUCH force and pressure does "removal of a sleeve" require...dunno, seen a bunch of stuff in surgery, just ain't adding up in my mind.
Ed Brunner
Member
Did the article say the finger was severed at the first joint. I, too find it hard to see that as an accident. If I read the article correctly, she asked repeatedly for ID and didn't get it. This was Detroit , right? I am not surprised that she thought he was a carjacker.
Re the 79 yr old senile and arthritic grandmother armed with a kitchen knife. No, I was not there and there is a lot that I don't know about it. I just picture myself in a similar situation and wonder how I would feel explaining that I had no other option but to SHOOT her. I am not a ninja, but chances are I could have kept her from cutting me. For one thing I could probably run faster than she could.
Re the 79 yr old senile and arthritic grandmother armed with a kitchen knife. No, I was not there and there is a lot that I don't know about it. I just picture myself in a similar situation and wonder how I would feel explaining that I had no other option but to SHOOT her. I am not a ninja, but chances are I could have kept her from cutting me. For one thing I could probably run faster than she could.
BrianW
Member
FWIW, I've severed the first knuckle joint of many, many bear toes as part of the skinning process, it takes a sharp knife and lots of practice to do it with any speed. A skilled skinner takes perhaps 30 seconds/knuckle, a true expert maybe 15 seconds. I imagine that "slicing" through a human knuckle with a single stroke is nigh on impossible (though I don't know for sure) and would think that it would take a heck of a chop to hack through the bone/cartilage.
Another "food for thought" bitesized nugget: my mom is an RN at a nursing home, caring for the elderly including the snile and "demented". She's been doing it for decades, and has been involved in a few set-tos with confused patients. Ma is 64, about 5'1" tall and weighs in at almost 100 lbs in a winter coat and heavy boots. On one occasion an old man knocked her across a room into a table; she had to get 5 or 6 stitches in her forehead. After she put the old guy to bed by herself.
Another "food for thought" bitesized nugget: my mom is an RN at a nursing home, caring for the elderly including the snile and "demented". She's been doing it for decades, and has been involved in a few set-tos with confused patients. Ma is 64, about 5'1" tall and weighs in at almost 100 lbs in a winter coat and heavy boots. On one occasion an old man knocked her across a room into a table; she had to get 5 or 6 stitches in her forehead. After she put the old guy to bed by herself.
Tamara
Senior Member
What I can't get over is the fact that, after already costing the department one wrongful death lawsuit, this knucklehead was not only allowed to continue to roam about without adult supervision, but moved from uniformed patrol to plainclothes, where he promptly lops some lady's finger off.
My psychic powers tell me that somebody in the Detroit PD besides Officer Guillotine is gonna be filling out unemployment forms before all is said and done...
My psychic powers tell me that somebody in the Detroit PD besides Officer Guillotine is gonna be filling out unemployment forms before all is said and done...
Miss Demeanors
Member
What a horrible thing! I find it very hard to believe it was an accident.Powderman
Member
Excuse me, I know I don't have a lot of time on the job here--but what was that idiot doing pulling out a knife?
How did he develop PC to even stop this woman?
Did he absolutely, positively, have to draw down on an old woman?
Something really stinks here--and it ain't fish.
Oh, yeah--cutting off someone's sleeve to cuff? Never heard of that one. What do they teach at those high grade eastern poleese academies?
How did he develop PC to even stop this woman?
Did he absolutely, positively, have to draw down on an old woman?
Something really stinks here--and it ain't fish.
Oh, yeah--cutting off someone's sleeve to cuff? Never heard of that one. What do they teach at those high grade eastern poleese academies?
Justin Moore
Member
I guess all that Federal training is paying off
sm
member
My guess is Nepotism
Tamara
Senior Member
new leaf,
Okay, spin this one for us. How was there a legitimate, or even accidental, reason to cut this woman's finger off?
So far, every cop I've talked about this with said "He was cutting her sleeve off!?!?!?".
Okay, spin this one for us. How was there a legitimate, or even accidental, reason to cut this woman's finger off?
So far, every cop I've talked about this with said "He was cutting her sleeve off!?!?!?".
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