Officer Shot By Partner During Pit Bull Attack

[glennser]

Wow this thread has really wandered...

Rugerlvr
""The female officer's actions were covered up, and she was promoted to detective for her gallantry.
all in the name of diversity"

This kind of sexist BS is not highroad.

The shooter could have just as easily been a weak-willed man as a weak-willed woman. "

alex_trebek : "I think the poster was not saying anything about one gender vs. another, simply pointing out that there is a liability for firing minorities that do not exist for other groups of people."

So racism is ok but sexism isn't? I don't know anything about the case in question but why wouldn't they simply want to avoid embarassment for the department without bringing race or sex into it?

Also in relation to Lance22's early post about being bitten by police trained dogs and hence being an expert I think I rather be attacked by a police trained dog than one acting under it's natural instincts, I thought the training was aimed at removing any weapons and pinning you down so you can be cuffed while natural instincts involve ripping you to shreds?

 

[cpttango30]

Also in relation to Lance22's early post about being bitten by police trained dogs and hence being an expert I think I rather be attacked by a police trained dog than one acting under it's natural instincts, I thought the training was aimed at removing any weapons and pinning you down so you can be cuffed while natural instincts involve ripping you to shreds?

I tell you what it didn't feel any different to me. They are still working on the same instincts they are just modified. Same goes for collies and other working breeds it is a modified pray drive. They bite and shake their heads. The only differance is when the handeler yells out they release (Most of the time).

One of the other does from that Navy unit I did the training with was known for sweeping your legs with her hind end she also had broken all four of her K9 teeth so they were all stainless steel. Talk about putting the fear of god in you take one look at a dog that looks like JAWS from James Bond. Though when not on duty she was sweet as could be.

Dogs are dogs when they bite they bite.

 

[Hardware]

Why should we be expecting these officers to have a fully successful encounter with an aggressive dog? A dog attack can be a ferocious, disorienting situation. I have also seen police kill dogs that were playing.

The reasons for this are simple. The police are not trained for animal control. They do not know how to interpret the dog's method of communicating. The tools they are issued to control humans are marginal for dealing with dogs. Application of deadly force while the dog is applying it's own deadly force is never a sure thing. Both officers came out of it alive. That's probably the best outcome we could hope for.

 

[Girodin]

I thought the training was aimed at removing any weapons and pinning you down so you can be cuffed while natural instincts involve ripping you to shreds?

I would not say that is a real accurate assement.

Training for police dogs and protection dogs varies greatly in terms of both tactics and quality. There do tend to be differences in untrained dogs vs trained ones. I dont think one could say outright that it would be preferable to be attacked by one vs the other there are simply too many variables and the individual dog is a HUGE one.

Trained dog:

The attack is likey to be much more determined (presuming quality training).

Trained dogs tend to have more bite bite strength from conditioning and training than a house pet of the same breed and size.

Untrained:
Dogs tend to chain bite, ie release and rebite which can lead to one being more chewed up.

On average I would think one would have a better chance of disuading an attack from an untrained dog than a well trained manstopper.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

the speed is real impressive i had a dominence struggle going on in my pack between a lab husky mix 90 pounds and a border collie lab mix 40 pounds i got in between em breaking up a fight and got bit right well and so fast that it was over before i knew it.had broken bones in my hand and a real slick slash through my eyelid. total elapsed time for 4 or 5 bites less than 2 seconds

 

[XDKingslayer]

one that believes that all dogs that bite without provocation (and that is the big thing right there) can be reformed and rehomed.

I did not say all dogs can be reformed and rehomed. I said that ones that can pass agressiveness tests after training.

 

[XDKingslayer]

the speed is real impressive i had a dominence struggle going on in my pack between a lab husky mix 90 pounds and a border collie lab mix 40 pounds i got in between em breaking up a fight and got bit right well and so fast that it was over before i knew it.had broken bones in my hand and a real slick slash through my eyelid. total elapsed time for 4 or 5 bites less than 2 seconds

Did you put the dogs down? According to some here you should have.

 

[Girodin]

Did you put the dogs down? According to some here you should have.

I guess you have missed the whole point about an unprovoked bite. Sticking your hand between two fighting dogs and getting bit is not the same as a dog deliberately biting a person. Two VERY different situations that you are erroniously attempting to make appear the same. Biting a person who inserts themself in the middle of a fight is not an unprovoked bite, which is what others were referencing

I did not say all dogs can be reformed and rehomed. I said that ones that can pass agressiveness tests after training.

I didn't say that you did either. I simply said that I am closer to the position that all should be put down than the ieda that all can be rehomed. I then explained why efforts to rehome such animals are highly impractical and from a utilitarian stand point not the best option.

I would still love to hear the logistics of such a rehoming plan however. What will this test consits of? Who will provide the training? Who will pay for it?

Why does spending an inordinate amount of time and money on dogs with a significantly smaller chance of being rehomed make sense when unreal numbers of other dogs are being put down daily?

 

[XDKingslayer]

I would still love to hear the logistics of such a rehoming plan however. What will this test consits of? Who will provide the training? Who will pay for it?

You act like this is impossible when it happens every day at rescue shelters. You're connected to the same internet I am, look your questions up. You'll find that most of these shelters are non-profit, costs are covered by adoption fees (which are usually significantly higher then your local pound) and donations. They use volunteer employees.

It's not like it costs a million dollars to train a dog. In fact, all it cost me in the first level of training my dog was some knowledge, a little caring and a couple packs of hot dogs...

Like I said, you're on the same internet I am, look up dog rescues, look up the standardized agressiveness tests, hey, some of them even list budget information if you look hard enough. In fact, the Boxer rescue even posted it's vet bill total for 2007 on it's website. You'll find all the logistics you want. You'll also find that it's not that expensive to do this with a dog as long as it's healthy (vet bills do add up). These dogs don't need a brazillion dollars and a shrink to fix a bite problem. They need 1st level training and someone who can care for the dog and understands dominance.

You'll also find that these dogs don't have a smaller chance of being rehomed. In fact, they have a higher chance of being rehomed because they aren't in a kill shelter, receive the training they should have (and would more than likely have prevented a bite to begin with) and are put through a more rigorous adoption process and screen than your local move 'em or kill 'em pound.

It just flabbergasts me that you seem to not know about these types of shelters, even though they've been around for decades, yet continue to sound like it's an Area 51 level impossibility.

But if you need me to do the work for you, then check out http://www.flbr.org/ They have a pretty good program for placing Boxers, have a write up on their pre-adoption care, and like I said even note their vet expenditures.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i didn't put the dogs down. i put myself in the position. i did consider it though if the problem continued. i have toddlers and if one of them was in the wrong place when a ruckus broke out it could be ugly.
i actually proved bobs statement about dog owners. i knew it was not bright to try to break up that fight like that (naked in the dark but i was unwilling to let mighty mouse get eaten even though she started the trouble.when i pulled the big dog off lil one she figureed i was on her side and attacked minnie. when minnie lunged she launched my smart self (hand locked under minnies collar)right into ground zero as they closed again. i hit upside down naked and was very concerned with protecting all the soft spots. if i had video it woulda been a hoot

 

[ilbob]

Putting your hands between two snarling dogs is almost asking to get bit. Even if they don't mean to bite they might catch you with an open mouth.

Most dogs respond pretty well to being doused with water when they are engaged in this kind of behavior. Even just a little water (like from a squirt bottle) will often convince them to disengage.

Won't work on more aggressive dogs, but usually works on most dogs.

I don't know that there are any shelters that allow dogs to be adopted before their temperament is assessed. Its not a real difficult thing to assess and is often done by the shelter volunteers.

Many (maybe most) shelters put down dogs with temperament problems, as they are a liability. Adopting out a dog without testing for temperament issues, or adopting out a dog with known issues is asking for trouble.

Its is often quite time consuming to retrain dogs with temperament issues. With as many strays as there are, it is more cost effective to euthanize those with problems rather than trying to retrain them.

 

[Girodin]

It just flabbergasts me that you seem to not know about these types of shelters, even though they've been around for decades, yet continue to sound like it's an Area 51 level impossibility … But if you need me to do the work for you, then check out http://www.flbr.org/

This is a rescue group doing the care they do through the use of foster homes. Did you fail to read where I differniated between foster homes and shelters? Thus you are not bringing up anything that I didn’t already acknowledge

You'll also find that these dogs don't have a smaller chance of being rehomed. In fact, they have a higher chance of being rehomed because they aren't in a kill shelter

Here you are doing a rail split on your variables. Certainly a dog in a no kill shelter has a greater chance to be adopted than one that has x amount of time before it will be put down. That speaks nothing peoples preference for a dog with out a history of biting. It also ignores that having difficult to place animals in rescue and no kill shelters means other dogs die in kill shelters do to the limited resources these groups have. You if don’t believe they have limited resources just take a look at the link you provided. BTW it is my experience in rescue that such animals are more difficult to place. Do I have empirical evidence to support that claim? No, I doubt that my experience is unique however.

It's not like it costs a million dollars to train a dog. In fact, all it cost me in the first level of training my dog was some knowledge, a little caring and a couple packs of hot dogs...

You are comparing basic obedience training to the training necessary to deal with serious behavior problems. They are not the same. The number of people that can safely and successfully do the late is smaller. The time and effort required for the latter is greater as well.

These dogs don't need a brazillion dollars and a shrink to fix a bite problem. They need 1st level training and someone who can care for the dog and understands dominance

You are presuming to that all dogs bite for the same reason and that the fix is the same for all of them. That is not so. Further the absolute cost of dealing with problem dogs is not the number that matters it is the relative cost vs rehoming another animal. In my post I asked not if it cost a lot of money but if the inordinate cost and effort (ie the fact that it will take more) is worth it given the number of dogs that die daily in shelters for want of resources.

I will delineate my argument for you very clearly. Feel free to tell me which part you disagree with.

There are millions of homeless dogs in the united states.

Many die each year because they can not be re-homed and there are not the resources to care for them. It is estimated that 3-4 million are destroyed annually. (http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_aff...istics/hsus_pet_overpopulation_estimates.html)

Resources for re-homing and caring for homeless pets is limited.

From a utility maximizer’s position (this means what is the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of dogs) the added cost, time and effort on a dog that has bitten unprovoked does not make sense, even if it is not a huge amount.

Of course these dogs being PTS is SOP at many shelters for the above reasons, thus debating it with you here is fairly pointless. There are even shelters that simply destroy certain breed types as a matter of policy.

 

[ArmedBear]

i had a dominence struggle going on in my pack between a lab husky mix 90 pounds and a border collie lab mix 40 pounds i got in between em breaking up a fight and got bit right well and so fast that it was over before i knew it.had broken bones in my hand and a real slick slash through my eyelid. total elapsed time for 4 or 5 bites less than 2 seconds

A little bit of light reading about dogs would have probably taught you not to get in between them. Sorry about your injury, but why in hell did you do that?!?

 

[ilbob]

i had a dominence struggle going on in my pack between a lab husky mix 90 pounds and a border collie lab mix 40 pounds i got in between em breaking up a fight and got bit right well and so fast that it was over before i knew it.had broken bones in my hand and a real slick slash through my eyelid. total elapsed time for 4 or 5 bites less than 2 seconds

A little bit of light reading about dogs would have probably taught you not to get in between them. Sorry about your injury, but why in hell did you do that?!?

Dog fights happen so fast that there is not always time to think before you do. Its natural to bend over and try and separate the dogs that are going after each other. I did it a last year with a couple of beagles that decided to snarl at each other and go to it. No biting in that case, not me, not each other.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i can't even say i didn't know better. i've been munched before same scene. mighty mouse was such a ballsy lil dog i didn't want her killed. we had a third even bigger dog who wouls join in real furball then.when she first started losing the fights she got tactical. she's lure the big dog under wifes crv she could still fight erect big dog couldn't evened the odds. the bigger dog was my dog mighty mouse was wifes dog. if my dog hurt hers then my pain really starts.down 2 just 2 dogs now dynamic is much mellower.

i finally got a stun gun ultimate fight stopper. just the sound did it never had to zap anyone