Officer with hammer down 1911 in oly

[Father Knows Best]

Want an example?

What a coincidence. Right after posting my comment above stating that you should never lower the hammer on a loaded 1911 because the risk of an ND is too high, I stumbled on this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=211933

I rest my case.

 

[1911 guy]

Herrwolfe,

The safety catch you describe is called the "half cock" notch. It's only function is to catch the hammer in the unlikely event (I've never heard of it happening) something mechanical fails and the hammer falls. This will not catch the hammer in the case of operator error, because the trigger is being pulled and the sear is not in position to catch the hammer. Decocking, anyone?

Long story short, in the case of a properly functioning 1911, the half cock notch in the hammer is useless. It is not meant to be used by the operator, but by the pistol itself.

 

[Ryder]

Would someone please explain why the officers thought this was illegal.

Can't speak for Washington but there is some confusion regarding this in my state. Our permit is called a "Concealed Pistol Permit" (CPL). According to their theory it does not say "Pistols" (plural). The statutes do not forbid the carry of more than one handgun.

There is no requirement to inform on possession of multiple firearms here. We are required only to inform that we are armed. I've met cops that don't even know what a CPL is. They actually think it is a "CCW Permit" Point is some people exist only to start arguments. The less info you give someone like that the better. They can't argue with themselves, or can they? hehe

 

[tegemu]

Perhaps his agency required that he carry his weapon in the manner that he was carrying it.

 

[HerrWolfe]

Am still nervous to carry with the hammer cocked and safety on although all folks tell me it is the safest mode. But I am also nervous to carry with the chamber empty since it then takes two hands to make it useable, other than it being a club. Perhaps a different model would suit my needs better....one that I can let the hammer down, which would be easy to pull back if needed.

I consider, right or wrong, that it is more difficult to mistakingly pull a hammer back than to mistakingly push the safety off, when holstered. When I carry the 1911 now, it is with the hammer back and safety on, but am very aware of it. Maybe that is a good thing!

When carrying my PPK/S a round is chamered but the hammer is down and requires pulling the hammer back to fire only after taking the safety off, or taking safety off then pulling trigger. This design just seems safer to me.

This issue has probably been argued over and over, so all I am looking for is perhaps the pistol that has the safer [to me] features.

 

[1911 guy]

C&L 1911.

I'm not going to get into another 4 page debate like the one that got shut down yesterday, but given the mechanics of what must happen to make a 1911 fire, it's completely safe.

1) thumb safety must be disengaged.
2) grip safety must be depressed.
3) trigger must be pulled.

If any of these three things are not happening, a 1911 will NOT fire. When decocking a 1911, however, the trigger is being pulled, the grip safety is depressed and the thumb safety has been disengaged. All that's between you and an ND is a slip of the thumb or finger.

 

[Father Knows Best]

When carrying my PPK/S a round is chamered but the hammer is down and requires pulling the hammer back to fire only after taking the safety off, or taking safety off then pulling trigger. This design just seems safer to me.

The PPK/s is a DA/SA design. It has a "decocking lever" that is designed to lower the hammer SAFELY on a loaded chamber. The intended mode of carry is with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. The first trigger pull is then double action, meaning it both cocks and fires the gun. Each cycle of the slide leaves the hammer back, so subsequent shots are single action.

There are lots of people who do feel that this design is "safer" than cocked-and-locked single actions. That first DA trigger pull is long and heavy (EXTREMELY heavy on a PPK, which is why I don't like them), but it makes it very unlikely that you will unintentionally fire the weapon. Many police departments still mandate DA/SA or DAO (double action only) pistols for carry because of the belief that it is safer than cocked-and-locked.

I must say, though, that I don't recall the PPK as having a "safety" separate from the decocking lever. Does it? I used to have one many years ago. My recollection is that it was cocked and ready to fire, or decocked via the lever, but there was no separate manual safety device. That seems pointless to me.

 

[jondar]

??? So I'm still missing something here. Are you saying that the danger is not in carrying the pistol, loaded chamber, hammer down but the danger being in the lowering the hammer on a loaded round in that it may slip out from under your thumb??

 

[LanEvo`]

??? So I'm still missing something here. Are you saying that the danger is not in carrying the pistol, loaded chamber, hammer down but the danger being in the lowering the hammer on a loaded round in that it may slip out from under your thumb??

Basically, yes.

Carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 is not unsafe...but GETTING to Condition 2 can be very unsafe.

Emre

 

[Father Knows Best]

Carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 is not unsafe...but GETTING to Condition 2 can be very unsafe.

I'll take it one step further. Getting to condition 2 is indeed VERY unsafe. Once the firearm is there, however, it isn't particularly unsafe while in condition 2.

Ask youself, however, what has to happen before the gun is fired? That's right -- you have to draw the hammer back with the thumb. That's another accident waiting to happen. A broken safety notch (half cock) and/or a misplaced trigger finger can and will cause an unintentional discharge in the act of drawing the hammer back.

Standard 1911's should be carried in conditions one or three, but never two. The only 1911's that should be carried in condition two are 1911's that have been modified (such as the SFS system) for condition two, or those that aren't really 1911's (like the Para Ordnance LDA series).

 

[1911_CQB]

hell i guess they didnt all have bobbed hammers....

 

[Langenator]

You didn't happen to notice which PD's patch the officer was wearing, did you?

I'm not an expert (far from it) but the only PD in WA that I know of authorizing 1911s is Tacoma. Given a big event like Lakefair, they may have been getting some assistance from neighboring cities.

As for LEOs in this area carrying non-Glock pistols, I've seen a Pierce County sheriff's deputy carrying an HK USP (hammer back, safety on, incidentally) and a Lacey PD officer carrying some flavor of a S&W auto.

 

[1911_CQB]

No i didnt notice what PD he was with, he was in a gray polo shirt, with the dept on the chest( too small , couldnt read), with black 5.11s IIRC.

 

[joab]

Carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 is not unsafe...but GETTING to Condition 2 can be very unsafe.

Carrying in Codition two is also unsafe. A sharp blow to the hammer, such as the gun dropping to the ground for whatever reason, could cause a discharge.

 

[Majic]

Now if a 1911 falls on it's muzzle with sufficient force it can fire, but not if it falls on the hammer.

Anyways..rant over.

Now why get upset over how someone else carries their handgun?

 

[joab]

A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off,

 

[Majic]

Even impacting the hammer resting on the firing pin does not generate enough energy to propel the firing pin forward hard enough to set off a primer. The reason the firing pin rests further to the rear when the hammer is cocked.

 

[1911_CQB]

I am considering a LEO career after I get out of the military, and I am kicking around the idea of a ride along, and you just watch, im gonna get that clown that didnt like me having a gun...or the hammer down guy.. ah well....I wonder what there position on folks retaining there CCW piece around here during a ride along. I know back home in KY , the locals didnt care. Hell they told ya how to get the mini 14 down in case he got into trouble. Ah...yo live in a rual area again...we can dream cant we.

(off topic like a mother i know, srry mods.......i didnt even realize it till i was done and posted...lol)

 

[joab]

I guess we will just have to agree that dropping a 1911 in condition 2 could cause a discharge and leave it at that.

 

[winchester62]

I must say, though, that I don't recall the PPK as having a "safety" separate from the decocking lever. Does it? I used to have one many years ago. My recollection is that it was cocked and ready to fire, or decocked via the lever, but there was no separate manual safety device. That seems pointless to me.

The PPK has a safety like that on a Beretta 92 or S&W auto. It is slide-mounted, decockes the gun, and makes it safe. You might be thinking of the Sig 230/232. It has a decocker that is frame-mounted and does not act as a safety. The Sig is otherwise VERY similar to the Walther.

 

[1911_CQB]

Father Knows Best ya gotta be thinking about a sig, all the walthers I know of all had safety/decocker, unless the made a variant?

 

[RON in PA]

A note on the Walther PP and PPK, They were the first of the DA/SA semis and are a bit primitive in that they lacked a firing pin block so that to prevent accidental discharge if dropped Walther advised carry with the hammer down and safety on. Also Walther advised that when decocking one should put one's thumb between the firing pin and hammer.

Could it be that the officer carrying the 1911 was carrying in condition 3 and was trained to rack slide as he drew?

 

[BluesBear]

How many times each year do we have to have to go through this BS? :banghead:

A 1911 pattern pistol with an inertia firing pin without a firing pin safety MIGHT fire if dropped on it's MUZZLE.
A 1911 pattern pistol with an inertia firing pin will NOT fire if dropped on it's hammer.
Or on it's side.

The only 1911 pattern pistol I have ever seen that did not have an inertia firing pin were some of the older Llamas.


There are several Washington departments that allow officers to carry their personal 1911 pattern pistols on duty.

 

[1911_CQB]

lol...isnt if funny how a thread can go from one subject to another....(related, but still different..)...ahh..the internet....

 

[Father Knows Best]

Father Knows Best ya gotta be thinking about a sig, all the walthers I know of all had safety/decocker, unless the made a variant?

I said that to my knowledge, the PPK does have a safety that is separate from the decocking lever. I used to have a PPK/s, and all I remember it having was a single lever on the left rear of the slide. You used that single lever to both decock the pistol AND engage the safety. If there was a separate safety mechanism, I don't remember it.

Given the nearly 20 pound pull weight (SA mode) of the trigger on that beast, I don't see that it needed any kind of manual safety. What it needed was a safety that could be engaged with the hammer back so I could just use it in SA cocked-and-locked mode.