(OH) Thieves Burglarize Home, Take High-Powered Automatic Weapons
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rocinante
Member
Sure it has been pointed out but the owner is a freaking moron some of the things he said. Might be okay for dick swinging smack talk with his buddies but HE is the worst enemy telling a reporter all that stuff. That M60 damn sure isn't any danger if the thieves got a bit of capitalist smarts in them at all. Hard to fence but valuable. The UZI give me a break.
kd7nqb
Member
Beyond the he's a moron talk lets say the guns are recovered in perfect condition just as they were taken. What are the chances he will ever get these both back without a hell of a fight with the cops? I have heard horror stories of even good looking glocks getting "misplaced, or just stalled" for a long period of time. I could only imagine stuff like this.
Elza
Member
Gun safe my sweet butt! A $50 POS from Wally World! Granted he might not be able to have a 4,000 pound vault. But the M60 breaks down to a point where it will fit in a reasonably small area. There are lots of good safes (real safes that can’t be pried open with a screw driver) that the M60 would fit into. Lag bolting it to the wall might cost you your security deposit but this beats hell out of losing your class III weapons!
heypete
Member
*shrugs* I can see the police holding them as evidence in a trial against the criminals. If I were him, I'd submit a petition with the court that the guns be examined for any particular forensic evidence needed (ballistics, fingerprints, etc.) as soon as possible, and then be placed into vapor-emitting storage containers (the big plastic gun-bag type things) to prevent damage or corrosion while in storage, due to the irreplaceable nature and high value of the guns in question. I would also petition that after they've been examined and displayed as evidence, they be returned to their rightful owner who (I presume) would be able to more secure store them in the future.
With many "regular" guns, most people don't keep bills of sale or receipts, so I could see it being difficult to prove one's ownership of the gun in question to the police. With an NFA firearm, proving ownership would be trivially easy at worst, and I don't see any hassle on those grounds.
The whole township has a population of 37,587 as of the 2000 census. It's not a "big city police department" that you've heard horror stories of. If the guy owns multiple NFA articles, he probably knows some folks at the police department (he would have had to go there at least three times for sign-offs), and I don't really foresee any problems with getting his guns back other than a delay if they need to be presented in a trial. I could be wrong, and am basing my opinion on my knowledge of several small counties that I've known and lived in, though his might well be different.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
OK, where did you hide it. Can we come shoot it?
Kimber1911_06238
Member
He lives in an apt....bus has a Class III weapons collection? I can definitely appreciate his priorities!!! 
Glockfan.45
member
Ditto, if I wanted an illegal MG I would just build one for a grand or less out of a parts kit. This thing has zero value for street sale. If the person/persons who stole it are smart enough to figure out how to work it (link ammo, etc) then surely the price of 7.62x51mm will keep them from using it for wrong doing
. The suppressed UZI however is the one that worries me the most. If that thing ends up getting used in a drive by, or robbery 
. Dear lord the press will eat that up.
ROF for a M60 is not 850 rpm.Does anybody else want to hit this tool with a stick, or is it just me?
New theory... random break in. The thieves saw a gun safe, wanted the guns and broke in. The thieves didn't know much about guns and aren't really sure what they had stolen. They got home and started to see the news stories about the particular guns they stole. Now they know that they can't sell them for much and it's not worth the risk of getting caught with them. They broke the guns up into tiny little pieces and burried them... the M60 at least, they might keep the uzi.
Also I see links for the M60 sold in Shotgun News, I have a feeling that these are purchased by the same people over and over. So if a new person places an order it will be mighty suspicious.
Also I see links for the M60 sold in Shotgun News, I have a feeling that these are purchased by the same people over and over. So if a new person places an order it will be mighty suspicious.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I would think that a gun guy would have more than just 2 NFA weapons. Surely there's a handgun or something else in there. The guy must have owned more than just an M60 and Uzi you'd think.
Since they only took those 2 I still think it was targeted, and they knew in advance those weapons were there.
If you are gonna carry an M60 out the front door, why not grab a handgun or 2 while you are there.
Phaetos
Member
Someone find out what brand safe that is so that no one here buys one.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
The story mentioned "trophy case". I hope that's not what he was using to secure $50K plus of irreplacable history.
Or he's someone who isn't a gunny and just sees them as investments
I have to laugh. I have been involved in a few and read a ton of threads of poeple justifying POS gun RSAs. The usual line of thinking is they only have to defend against smash and grab thieves, and no thieve will steal machine guns because without the paperwork they are not worth much.
Now here comes this thread which basically shows what a bunch of crap both arguments are, and now everybody is holier than thou, but in a couple of weeks another "What cheap safe should I buy" thread will pop up, and the same couple justifications for storing a lot of $$$$$ guns in a $ gun save will come right back.
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a1abdj
Member
I suppose nobody will be buying any gun safes now. A 12 gauge (1/10") or 10 gauge (1/8") box is going to offer the same level of protection regardless of who makes it. 95% of all gun safes on the market fall into this category. 95% of all gun safes can be opened by prying in very short order.
As a general rule of thumb, we tell people to be prepared to spend 10% of the value of the contents on a safe. $50,000 worth of guns = $5,000 safe.
Gun safes are a little harder to pin down, because most $5,000 gun safes don't offer much more protection than a $1,000 gun safe.
I really don't see how it is all that easy to pry a gun safe door open. First I would think you would have to tip it over. And then pry enough to pop the bolts. Mine has 10 1" bolts around the door, and for a little more I could have got a gun safe with 12-15 1.5" bolts. So forgive me, I just don't see it being relatively quick, or quiet. Possible maybe, but not quick or quiet.
Personally, if I was to attack a gun safe, I would either take an angle grinder to a side of the safe, or drill a hole and take a metal cutting reciprocating saw to the side. Attacking the door of a decent gun safe seems like the hardest method.
But I am not a safe cracker either.
For $5,000 I would expect at least quarter inch thick walls and a really heavy door.
Personally, if I was to attack a gun safe, I would either take an angle grinder to a side of the safe, or drill a hole and take a metal cutting reciprocating saw to the side. Attacking the door of a decent gun safe seems like the hardest method.
But I am not a safe cracker either.
For $5,000 I would expect at least quarter inch thick walls and a really heavy door.
Archer1945
Member
It is interesting there are those who think an NFA weapon with no paper work is not worth anything on the street. Actually the value of those guns just went through the roof. There are plenty of people who would love to get their hands on unregistered NFA material. As to the ammo problem what if someone already had a few thousand rounds of ready to go .308 ammo and was looking for something to use it in, someday.
There was a saying during WWII, 'Loose lips, sink ships'. It seems this "gentleman" might be something of a loudmouth it is possible he said something someone overheard and knew someone who just might be interested in this type of merchandise. Or he might have even told a buddy, who knew a good thing when he heard it and was able to make a few extra bucks by passing the word along.
Contrary to popular opinion very few burglars carry crowbars with them because they do tend to be heavy and usually aren't necessary in a common buglary. Since the 'safe' certainly appears to have been broken open with a crowbar either the burglar/s knew what they were after or someone wants it to look as if a burglary was committed. Wonder what else was stolen? I would also like to know if anyone can corroborate the fact those weapons were even in that 'safe'.
I find it a bit hard to believe someone who is willing to invest $50K on a gun is not going to spend $400 or $500 to get a relatively good safe to keep it in. While a safe in this price range is not going to be as good as a $3000+ Fort Knox it would certainly be strong enough to make a smash n' grab burglar think twice about taking the time to attempt to open it.
There is something about the aroma of this whole thing I don't like.
There was a saying during WWII, 'Loose lips, sink ships'. It seems this "gentleman" might be something of a loudmouth it is possible he said something someone overheard and knew someone who just might be interested in this type of merchandise. Or he might have even told a buddy, who knew a good thing when he heard it and was able to make a few extra bucks by passing the word along.
Contrary to popular opinion very few burglars carry crowbars with them because they do tend to be heavy and usually aren't necessary in a common buglary. Since the 'safe' certainly appears to have been broken open with a crowbar either the burglar/s knew what they were after or someone wants it to look as if a burglary was committed. Wonder what else was stolen? I would also like to know if anyone can corroborate the fact those weapons were even in that 'safe'.
I find it a bit hard to believe someone who is willing to invest $50K on a gun is not going to spend $400 or $500 to get a relatively good safe to keep it in. While a safe in this price range is not going to be as good as a $3000+ Fort Knox it would certainly be strong enough to make a smash n' grab burglar think twice about taking the time to attempt to open it.
There is something about the aroma of this whole thing I don't like.
Professor K
Member
I dont think "Yo Homie" types have it. I'm guessing people that, you know, like guns, have it. Lots of people dont particularly care about firearms laws, or are ignorant of the laws. They'll be like "cool! an m60, how much?" and they'll sell it for a few grand.
If it is in the "yo homie" type's possession, it's probably being used as a trophy gun, more than likely for a gang. Lots of gangs do have AR-15s and stuff, but they dont really use them in crime. They're just kind of there to intimidate or brag about.
A driveby with an M60 would certainly be interesting, though.
But I think more than likely, a slightly less than ethical "gun nut" type of person has it, or will get it. Hell, I know I'd buy an M60 for 1-4K if it was offered to me, and I wouldnt ask where it came from. It's an M60, afterall, who wouldnt want it actual noninflated price.
It does seem fishy, but I dont think the guy deliberately setup the whole theft thing. He coulda just sold them for more than his insurance afterall. I guess someone must have gotten to know the guy a little, and set it up.
What many people dont understand is that many criminals are smart. They arent all random black or hispanic people that are almost illiterate, they got access to the internet, too. They can read whatever gun related information we put out. I don't think they'll have any trouble at all getting links for it, like some people are implying. While some criminals today, are the stereotypical dumb...people of non-Caucasian race, for PC terms...criminals you see in movies, they got access to any information they want now.
It's also possible a white supremist gang has it, too. They like guns...
If it is in the "yo homie" type's possession, it's probably being used as a trophy gun, more than likely for a gang. Lots of gangs do have AR-15s and stuff, but they dont really use them in crime. They're just kind of there to intimidate or brag about.
A driveby with an M60 would certainly be interesting, though.
But I think more than likely, a slightly less than ethical "gun nut" type of person has it, or will get it. Hell, I know I'd buy an M60 for 1-4K if it was offered to me, and I wouldnt ask where it came from. It's an M60, afterall, who wouldnt want it actual noninflated price.
It does seem fishy, but I dont think the guy deliberately setup the whole theft thing. He coulda just sold them for more than his insurance afterall. I guess someone must have gotten to know the guy a little, and set it up.
What many people dont understand is that many criminals are smart. They arent all random black or hispanic people that are almost illiterate, they got access to the internet, too. They can read whatever gun related information we put out. I don't think they'll have any trouble at all getting links for it, like some people are implying. While some criminals today, are the stereotypical dumb...people of non-Caucasian race, for PC terms...criminals you see in movies, they got access to any information they want now.
It's also possible a white supremist gang has it, too. They like guns...
Here's reaching: he was the one who hired the theves, and he's got them stashed somewhere "safe". I find it absolutely incredible that someone with tends of thousands in NFA firearms stores them in a $100 safe which can be pryed open.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
Maybe I misread the posts but I think what people are saying is a registered MG that had been stolen would not only be worth the same as an unregistered MG (what, maybe 1/10th of what a transferrable would go for?), but if you ever were caught with it, it's easily traceable to that particular burglary. 2 crimes for the price of 1 (although I'm sure the 10 years/$100K NFA one is going to be the most troubling).
Judging from how the guy was practically bragging about it if the article was correct, there are probably a LOT of people that knew about it. Possibly ones that aren't smart enough to figure out you can't just go out and sell the thing for what he claimed it was worth.
a1abdj
Member
Let's assume that your safe has a 1/4" plate door with 1/4" bolt guides, and 1" bolts. Which is going to give way first?
A safe is only as strong as its weakest link. In this case, you could have 6" round door bolts, but the 1/4" door plate is still the weakest component. You could have 10 bolts, or 20 bolts, and the 1/4" plate would fail at the same rate.
When shopping for a safe, you have to look at what that weakest link is. The manufacturers will point out their strengths, but never their weakness.
You are correct in that the door is the strongest part of the safe in most cases.
For $5,000 you could get a much more secure safe. Think 1" steel plate walls with 1.5" steel plate doors. You won't find these types of safes in the same places gun safes are typically sold.
Any safe can be pryed open using the right equipment. Obviously, some easier than others.
In reality, there's not much of a difference between a $300 gun safe and a $3,000 gun safe. There is some, but not enough to justify the extra money.
If you are looking to protect from children and theives scared off by safes, then both the $300 gun safe and the $3,000 gun safe will provide the exact same level of protection.
If you are looking to keep somebody with tools out of your safe, you better have something made of substantial steel or composite construction.
The problem with the "sell it on the street or to an immoral gun nut" theories are two fold: the cost of the machinery to get into a safe would be fairly substantial, as would the time/noise required to get in. I imagine much of that machinery would take a fair amount of lifting and effort to get into the apartment, particularly unnoticed. Also, he's coming home at 2am - which is a fairly late hour, generally, but still too early for most hits because there are still people about.
Unless it's the kind of safe you could get open with a crowbar (thin sheet metal, $100 at sporting goods store) and a couple good whacks/heaves from some heavies, I'm going to put my money on it being someone who knows him, and he knows who did it. I'm guessing he's a Gunkid variety who's hiding it for TEOTWAWKI or some such event, and wants it off the paper.
Unless it's the kind of safe you could get open with a crowbar (thin sheet metal, $100 at sporting goods store) and a couple good whacks/heaves from some heavies, I'm going to put my money on it being someone who knows him, and he knows who did it. I'm guessing he's a Gunkid variety who's hiding it for TEOTWAWKI or some such event, and wants it off the paper.
MatthewVanitas
Member
Value "went through the roof"? So the $50K M60 is worth $150K now? Think about it for a sec: an illegal MG, like an unregistered MG, is probably only worth a couple grand. Most respectable people wouldn't want to buy it, not just because it's illegal, but because it provides a slight novelty for a huge legal liability. No matter how fun a secret M60 would be, the the risk of prison isn't worth it. The lovely guy who sold it to you will get nabbed on a meth charge a month later, and will throw you to the wolves for a reduced sentence.
If someone wants an unregistered NFA item, they'll pay Billy Bob the Shady Machinist to build them one for way, way, way less than $50K. Maybe not an actual M60, but I betcha that Billy Bob can turn your Saiga into an RPK for a baggie of coke. Betcha Billy Bob can build you a Sten gun with a motorcycle muffler for cheaper than a registered suppressed Uzi.
I'm open to being corrected by any NFA experts, but as far as I understand it, it's the legal registration part that makes legal MGs so dang expensive.
I don't see how an illegal MG could possibly be worth more than a legal one.
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