OK, here's a new one for you...

[Captaingyro]

I just sat down to size some .308 brass. This is once-fired (by me) Winchester brass that has been deprimed and tumbled...in other words, decent, clean brass. I'm using RCBS dies in a Forster Co-Ax.

I ran the first case up into the FL die and felt the normal resistance as the case was sized down. However, as I ran the case back out of the die, there was no familiar drag as the expander was pulled out through the case mouth. Hmmm. I tried inserting a bullet, and, sure enough, it just slipped right in, as though no neck sizing had taken place. I tried again with four more cases, with the same result: no (or at least insufficient) neck sizing.

Measuring the outside neck diameter, I got .333". I had some cases on hand that had previously been sized in the same die, and measured the outside diameter: .330". I tried seating a bullet in the previously-sized cases and got the normal resistance.

I checked the lock ring on the die to make sure it hadn't slipped, and confirmed that the die is set to the correct depth, with the press handle just slightly camming over at the end of the stroke.

So, same die, same press, same adjustment, same cases, different result.

Just to make sure I wasn't in La-La Land, I installed an RCBS neck sizer set to the same depth, and tried again. Bingo: .330" and normal bullet seating resistance.

I disassembled the FL die and checked for internal cleanliness and damage. Everything looks good. I left the expander plug out and re-installed the die body in the press, tried another case, and got the same result: .333".

This should be so simple...it ain't rocket science. Am I nuts? What's going on here?

 

[nofishbob]

I think that this is work hardened brass that has more springback than softer brass. This is not a die adjustment issue.

Annealing the case necks will most likely get you out of "La La land".

Good luck!

Bob

 

[Captaingyro]

To repeat, I tried the same brass (and I mean the exact same cases) in the neck sizer, and they sized normally.

The amount of "work hardening" this brass has had is exactly one firing and a tumble in the corn cob.

 

[suzukisam]

are you sure you have the right die? I know some of my dies don't actually ay "308, 30-30, 7mm". any chance you grabbed a larger die? I don't know what you have, could it be a 35 cal or something?

 

[Walkalong]

Work hardened brass would not result in .333. Not even close. It has to be a wrong expander button.

 

[kelbro]

Crazy. No resistance coming out? Same die worked before but not now? Don't see how that can happen.

 

[James2]

Is it even remotely possible you have the wrong die? What is the inscription on the die?

I hate to suggest it, but a wrong die is what first comes to my mind.

 

[notasfancy]

I am not sure about that model but could be that the expander rod installed in a reverted position or too high or low?. If not you might have a wrong expanding rod. The measure between the point of contact at the case mouth + the thickness should give you the precise tolerance.
Try with a different die. After fixing, resize the brass again and measure all dimensions.

 

[Captaingyro]

To all who have suggested it might be the wrong die: I know, it makes sense. But I have picked up that die three times and actually read "308 FL" on the die body.

To all who have suggested a problem with the expander: think about it. I took the expander completely out and still got oversized necks. It's the sizer body that's failing to downsize the neck, not an oversized expander.

I have disassembled the jaws that serve as a universal shell holder on the CoAx. I'll clean them and re-install. All I can think of at this point is that the jaws are preventing full insertion of the case. Then again, the neck sizer die works...

 

[murf]

try calling rcbs. they may send you another die.

murf

 

[gamestalker]

You know what, this is rediculous, it's a die, and serves a very simplistic function, thus can only be one of two things happening. It's either the wrong die body or the wrong expander. It's not a case of a worn out die, it worked last time you used it. It doesn't sound like your new to hand loading, and I would imagine if you inspect it again you'll quickly discover the issue. Do you have friends or enemies that might prank you by switching something to make you pull your hair out?

 

[GP100man]

Anneal 1 peice & try again ! I had a batch of 30-06 do something similar ,I thought I grabbed 270 bullets !

 

[GLOOB]

I just ran across my first overworked 45ACP cases the other day. It was only a couple out of a batch of RP brass. I sized, primed, and flared. During flaring, one or two felt like they didn't flare, but I ignored it. Then during seating, a couple of 'em, the bullet just dropped right in. I could push the bullets in with one finger. That's when I noticed the out of place crimp rings around the middle. Never saw that on a brass auto pistol case, before. Apparently, someone else had squeezed all the useful life out of 'em before leaving them lay. If I didn't prime on the ram while sizing, I would have had to wonder if I'd sized them, at all. I checked the bullets, and they worked fine in the normal cases.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I highly doubt the brass is too hard considering the OP stated it's once fired (by him) brass.

My suggestion would be, loosen the nut and go through the die adjustment from the start. It's possible there was something in the die the first time you used it making the adjustment correct at the time but now that it's "moved" the adjustment is no longer correct. Start from scratch...

 

[Captaingyro]

Well, good morning all, and thanks for all the replies. After sleeping on it last night, here's all I can think of: for some reason, the case must not be traveling fully up into the die body. Even tho the die is bottoming out on the shell holder and the press handle is camming over, I just have to believe that a die that worked two weeks ago should work now. Kelbro's right...this is just crazy.

I'll also re-inspect and clean the interior of the die body. I can't see anything in there that would prevent full insertion, and I would expect to see damage somewhere on the case if a piece of debris was lodged in there, but you never know.

Finally, I'm going to eliminate one more variable by trying the die in a different press. I've got a venerable old Rock Chucker living at the other end of the bench doing de-capping and crimping duty; we'll see what she can do.

I may also call RCBS and/or Forster to see if they have any ideas. Whatever I find out, I'll get back here and keep you posted.

 

[JimKirk]

Captain The jaw are the same thickness as the top of a normal shell holder... if you will what you can see the slack taken up and the jaws pressed down until they contact the base of the press. Look at the crack where the jaws meet... you'll see what I'm saying.

Like you said ...something crazy is going on.

Jimmy K

 

[rsrocket1]

paint the shell with a magic marker to see that the shoulder is touching the die and that the neck is being processed by the die.

I think you're right about the neck not going up into the die properly. I don't know about the RCBS die, but I believe the Lee FL die does not clamp and tighten, it simply squishes the neck to an undersized diameter and the expander rod opens it back up to spec. Not great for the neck life, but at least it is not dependent on whether the die goes all the way down or not, so it is better for "partial full length resizing" (just bumping the shoulder back without buying separate shoulder collets).

I think doing a cam over is not good. It puts a super high stress on the die and can bend a steel die or crack a carbide die.

 

[Captaingyro]

OK everyone, mystery solved. The die body is bad.

In racking my brain to figure out how all this was possible, I finally had a "eureka" moment. Are you ready? All of the times I had used this die previously it was with factory new brass.

Here's what happened: I've only been loading .308 for a few weeks now. I found a good deal on a Remington 700 5R MilSpec, and figured since I was already loading .30-06 for a 1903 and an M1, I had a plentiful stock of powder, primers, and bullets. All I needed were some .308 dies and brass. I decided to go with new brass since I wanted to work up some loads from scratch and see what the 5R liked.

I bought a couple hundred new Winchester cases, and used the new FL die to do the initial sizing prior to trimming. The cases came from the factory with well-sized necks, so everything seemed normal on the initial sizing, including that familiar little tug as the expander was withdrawn from the case. I met the usual tension when seating the bullets, and everything was normal.

Fast forward to yesterday. I'm running low on the initial batch of loaded ammo, and sit down to prep the once-fired cases for reloading. You all know the rest of the story.

I spoke with RCBS today, and the tech didn't admit anything, but didn't seem surprised. One odd thing did happen, though: instead of mailing a replacement right out, they want the die body back first. Perhaps they've had a few of these bad die bodies escape the factory, and they want them back to see what's going on. Pure conjecture on my part, but in my limited experience they've never wanted anything back before.

Thanks so much to everyone who responded. Maybe we should start a thread on wierd reloading mysteries and how they were solved.

 

[rsrocket1]

It sounds like the neck sizing portion of the FL die is too wide. Oh well, they ought to make it good for you so you can get back to business. You can certainly use the neck sizing die for now. You shouldn't need to bump the shoulder back for at least 2-3 firings and by then, RCBS should send a replacement to you.

 

[gamestalker]

I just posted an exact same problem with a 9mm case and the problem was 100% brass related. I would grab some different brass and try again with the same die. I would be willing to bet you'll discover a favorable out come.