danez71
Member
Thank you. You just made my point. Your posts you reference dont back up your own statements.
Okay, one more spin-off... If cop asks whether you are armed?
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Thank you. You just made my point. Your posts you reference dont back up your own statements.
Deanimator
Member
I never walk out the door without a voice recorder, whether I'm armed or not. My attorney is absolutely brutal when it comes to discovery and using people's own words against them.
You apparently believe that the only possible response to police misbehavior is abject submission.
I don't think that battered spouse syndrome is a good guiding principle for any society.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
If it makes you feel better to say that, go ahead. I still have no idea what your point even is.
NMGonzo
Member
statepolice: why where you speeding?
nmgonzo: I was not speeding .
statepolice: why where you speeding?
nmgonzo: I was not speeding.
statepolice: you where speeding and I clocked you at xyz mph ... here is your warning (writes warning
nmgonzo goes on his merry way
You can talk to the police.
nmgonzo: I was not speeding .
statepolice: why where you speeding?
nmgonzo: I was not speeding.
statepolice: you where speeding and I clocked you at xyz mph ... here is your warning (writes warning
nmgonzo goes on his merry way
You can talk to the police.
Deanimator
Member
You stayed "on script" and that obviously worked for you.
danez71
Member
In regards to the bolded sentence I made bold.
Deanimator, I think what hunto is saying is that laws are rarely 100% clear cut (because there are some real knuckleheads in govt that write them). The result of that is that judges interpret the laws on the books. This is where the human factor comes in.
This is partially why the are several Supreme Court justices. Hence, this is why people get all riled up when a SCJ retires. They/we want to judge thats going to interpret the law in the way that they/we want them to.
Thats not even getting into the "spirit of the law" vs. the "letter of the law".
When enforcing the letter of the law violates the spirit of the law... IMO... thats when the law needs to be changed/rewritten/abolished.
danez71
Member
Your own posts that you refernce dont back up your own statements.
I'm sorry if you can not understand that sentence. I'm sure there are others that can.
It can not be any more simple than that.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Still not sure what you mean, I have not said anything contradictory. I said lawyers recommend you don't talk to the cops. That's true.
I said that lawyers don't waver in that recommendation, they recommend you keep quiet 100% of the time with no exceptions. That's true.
I said that personally I don't necessarily go 100% and there are times I might vary from that because it's easier. But, if it gets to a line that I think the questioning is out of line I will revert to the "hard line" stance. That's true too.
Still not sure if you actually have a point you are trying to make or if you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, but I'm done with it.
Deanimator
Member
Read farther along in his posts. He goes WAY beyond that to giving examples of what a cop could do if you don't meekly CONSENT to whatever he wants.
If we were to take that approach, we might as well all move to Mexico or the Democratic Republic of Congo.
What I learned as an infantry officer is that people, including LEOs, will work to the standard which you set for them. No standard is a standard too. It's what you find in third world countries and in some US cities.
Someone understands. Yes, that is where the human factor comes in, the judges, and the LEO that enforce the law. I guess he's never talked his way out of a traffic ticket. If cops were 'To the letter' 100% then everyone would get daily tickets (except Deanimator, who along with his voice recorder, I'm sure never breaks any traffic laws) as we all (except Deanimator) speed now and then, or make a lane change with no signal, something.
Hell, the night I raced a Camaro in my 59 Caddy the cop pulled us over and told me he had me for 8 violations. If I'd done what Deanimator said, my car would've been impounded, and I'd have gone to jail. Instead, I talked to him (!) and he let me go. Too bad he wasn't "100% to the letter of the law" or I would have been out money and jail time.
He says "meekly consent" to mischaracterize what I said. All I ever said was to be reasonable, not act like it's a T-1000 under the uniform.
danez71
Member
Reread post 81 again. Its laid out in basic form using your own complete quotes/posts that show your contradictions.
Most people can understand what they themselves write. Apparently you can not understand your own writings otherwise you would see your contradictions/misstatements.
If you cant understand your own writting and see the contradictions/misstatements....I dont know what to say as there is no possible way to have a coherent conversation with you.
Deanimator
Member
I find it easier and cheaper to not speed, drive drunk, etc.
Some find that a devilishly obscure concept.
But then my predecessor at my last job found it simply impossible not to forge credit line checks or to have the payee in the accounting system and on paper checks agree... especially when the actual payee was HIM.
People have a lot less leverage against you when you stop handing it to them willingly.
I don't personally know anyone who never exceeds the speed limit, or rolls a stop, or in some way deviates from the law in some fraction. Nor do I know anyone who rides around with personal recording equipment strapped to them to record any possible conversations.
You're quite a person.
You're quite a person.
Deanimator
Member
Then you don't know very many people in Ohio, Pennsylvania or Virginia. Police misbehavior toward those who carry openly or concealed has prompted a great many people to carry voice recorders in order to deter or document exercises in "creative writing" by LEOs. Those "fables", contradicted by voice recordings, have come back to haunt a number of cops.
It appears that you're out of touch with the mainstream of gun owners in a number of states.
mljdeckard
Member
I always drive within the margin safe to prevent getting stopped around here. (+ or - 5 mph.) I NEVER roll through a stop sign. I always keep my phone in my shirt or jacket pocket in front and I can start recording. I haven't had a traffic ticket in 12 years.I have a better solution to avoid tickets when you are street racing. DON'T FREAKIN' STREET RACE!!!
Deanimator and TexasRifleman give good advice here, not just about this situation but about many. Fiddletown hasn't chimed in, (at least not in the couple of pages I have read,) but he does too. Here's the thing. Your rights are only worth as much as you value them. If you think they are trivial or insignificant and waive them off, you perpetuate the bad habits of cops who are counting on people capitulating their rights to make their job easier. They certainly don't make my job easier or do parts of it for me.
The only good that comes from surrendering your rights is to benefit the police. Plenty of BAD can come from it. I have taken law classes from professors who came up through the ranks, as cops, prosecutors, and eventually judges. It gives one a perspective and understanding of how your interests and the interests of the police are not the same. Saying that you would cooperate to avoid confrontation is to surrender to unlawful authority. This does not help anyone.
Deanimator and TexasRifleman give good advice here, not just about this situation but about many. Fiddletown hasn't chimed in, (at least not in the couple of pages I have read,) but he does too. Here's the thing. Your rights are only worth as much as you value them. If you think they are trivial or insignificant and waive them off, you perpetuate the bad habits of cops who are counting on people capitulating their rights to make their job easier. They certainly don't make my job easier or do parts of it for me.
The only good that comes from surrendering your rights is to benefit the police. Plenty of BAD can come from it. I have taken law classes from professors who came up through the ranks, as cops, prosecutors, and eventually judges. It gives one a perspective and understanding of how your interests and the interests of the police are not the same. Saying that you would cooperate to avoid confrontation is to surrender to unlawful authority. This does not help anyone.
Deanimator
Member
You just reminded me of an interesting story.
A cop in a St. Louis suburb acted in precisely the fashion your claim cops will unless you meekly CONSENT to having your rights violated. The victim, a young man, had his car wired for both audio and video. He recorded a VERY interesting incoherent tirade from an officer, threatening to commit a variety of felonies. From watching the video, I conclude that the LEO is mentally unfit for law enforcement and may in fact be a danger to himself and others.
The young man released the video to the media and the internet. That LEO is no longer employed by that city... in part because the chief himself was fired and the entire department disbanded. Some cops from a nearby city started parking on his block, operating illegally outside of their jurisdiction in an attempt to intimidate him. After the local department disappeared like Brigadoon, they returned home, never to return. Apparently, they liked being able to feed their families and live indoors.
You should be able to find the video here: Insane Rant
This isn't Belarus.
You can fight back.
You can make a difference.
danez71
Member
Care to provide data to support those statements?
I'm sure some do but "great many people" and "mainstream of gun owners in a number of states"?
I'll go out on a limb here and say its more like "fringe" and not "mainstream"
When things get embelished or exagerated too far it sometimes looses the point all together.
Some do though.... its happening in N.Ca with the open carry but empty movement. And I'm glad they are carrying voice and video recorders.
Deanimator
Member
I suggest you frequent the Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association, and Virginia Citizens Defense League websites.
unloved
Member
I personally know quite a few people here in PA who carry digital voice recorders at all times. I know of a great many more.
danez71
Member
I did.
Since there isnt data on those sites that support your statement... you must not have any.
Or, please point it out to this non-gullable guy.
As I said, I know it happens. I just would like to see some data that supports the kinds of numbers you claim. Even remotely close to what you claim.
BTW - I dig your sig.
Since there isnt data on those sites that support your statement... you must not have any.
Or, please point it out to this non-gullable guy.
As I said, I know it happens. I just would like to see some data that supports the kinds of numbers you claim. Even remotely close to what you claim.
BTW - I dig your sig.
Yeah, being here in Texas, I'm not familiar with the number of people carrying recording equipment in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. So I guess I'm out of touch with the gun owners in those states, lol. But we down here don't have such an adversarial relationship between LEO and avg citizen that those extreme measures are required. I go to Houston all the time and I've never encountered a HPD officer that wasn't professional. Same with Beaumont PD. Tyler, Dallas, or on into Louisiana- Shreveport, Kimber, Lake Charles, Alexandria- I've never run into a demon-cop anywhere such as you describe. Never anywhere in the US, from Nevada, to N Carolina, to New York, to Florida, have I ever in all my travels come across anyone remotely like you describe, in a police uniform.
No, down here, we can pretty much do what we want, as long as we don't make some cops life more difficult with a bunch of smart-assery. Live and let live. I guess it's a Texas thing.
The stuff one learns....incredible.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
You are lucky.. Houston was notorious for this several years ago, at the specific direction of the former prosecuting attorney down there.
He is no longer in his job, but at the time he was actually advising the HPD to illegally arrest anyone carrying without a concealed permit even though the legislature had passed a law making it OK.
From an ACLU/TSRA write up:
So it does happen, even down here.
Deanimator
Member
Do a Google search on police and Carollton, Texas. You'll find one.
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guitarman531
Member
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- Dec 29, 2009
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- 30
In the traffic incidents where I've had to interact with LEOs, I gave them my DL, insurance, and CCW permit all at once. I verbally stated: "I have my CCW and I am carrying. It's in a holster" (all while keeping my hands on the wheel and looking at the officer. Never had any trouble at all or specific commands. One officer invited me to his car (I had hit a curb and was waiting to get towed) and (in a friendly manner) asked me why I had chosen to get my CCW.
Another time I was pulled over for a bad headlight in a borrowed car. Same "speech" given to him and the officer asked me what I carried (a Glock 19) and then proceeded to tell me how much he loved Glocks and used the full-size .40 for his duty carry and the sub-compact .40 for his off-duty... No tickets either time either
Whenever I get pulled over, I'm quick to let the officer know what's going on. By the nature of their job, they have to be suspicious of everyone they pull over and the more I can do to show them they can trust me, the more they will trust me.
On a side note, while I was waiting for my CCW to come in the mail, I got pulled over for wearing my hands-free cellphone set while driving in town (it was a set that was in both ears--not just one ear). I didn't have the permit yet and had forgotten that I had submitted the paperwork. However, I had been cleared for the CCW and was declared a permit holder by the state. So you can imagine how unhappy the officer was when he scans my DL and finds out that the kid he just pulled over has a CCW. Through my mirror, I watch the officer come back to my car really slow, unsnapping the thumbreak on this holster and putting his hand on his grip and cautiously leaning in to ask me if I have a weapon in the car...
So yeah, based on that, I'm quick to declare what exactly is going on. The LEOs seem to appreciate it a lot (the sheriff I interacted with specifically thanked me for being upfront with him).
Another time I was pulled over for a bad headlight in a borrowed car. Same "speech" given to him and the officer asked me what I carried (a Glock 19) and then proceeded to tell me how much he loved Glocks and used the full-size .40 for his duty carry and the sub-compact .40 for his off-duty... No tickets either time either
Whenever I get pulled over, I'm quick to let the officer know what's going on. By the nature of their job, they have to be suspicious of everyone they pull over and the more I can do to show them they can trust me, the more they will trust me.
On a side note, while I was waiting for my CCW to come in the mail, I got pulled over for wearing my hands-free cellphone set while driving in town (it was a set that was in both ears--not just one ear). I didn't have the permit yet and had forgotten that I had submitted the paperwork. However, I had been cleared for the CCW and was declared a permit holder by the state. So you can imagine how unhappy the officer was when he scans my DL and finds out that the kid he just pulled over has a CCW. Through my mirror, I watch the officer come back to my car really slow, unsnapping the thumbreak on this holster and putting his hand on his grip and cautiously leaning in to ask me if I have a weapon in the car...
So yeah, based on that, I'm quick to declare what exactly is going on. The LEOs seem to appreciate it a lot (the sheriff I interacted with specifically thanked me for being upfront with him).
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