Okay - What's So Bad About Profiling???

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That's right. But if I put the other guy in a certain group based on his looks, behaviour, age, ethnic background, dress and location AND realize that according to my personal experience members of that particular group have a higher probability of being a BG I wouldn't call that prejudice.

I will NOT automatically assume that he is a criminal, but I will stop him, give him a closer look and then decide if further actions are needed. And I see nothing wrong with that.


Trooper
 
WHo is more likely to have a criminal intent? The business man driving a 5 series BMW through my city or the Cadillac escalade with 24 inch rims filled with 5 gangbanger look alikes?
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Well, it depends if the BMW guy is Kenneth Lay, Jeffrey Skilling, Richard Scrushy, Bernard Ebbers or Dennis Kozlowski. :D



It's really simple, guys. Profiling on race is wrong, and it's dumb: The VAST majority of folk of any race are law-abiding.

Profiling on BEHAVIOR, however, is smart.

(And the wannabes would do well to stop looking like thugs if they don't want to be treated like them.)
 
There's all colors of people committing crimes and killing people. The point is their looks, dress, behavior and attitude. If I see a white man with his eyes glazed like donuts and wired to the max, I'm going to have the same response as I would have to any color gang bangers or Arabs wearing a heavy coat in the summer or anyone loading fertilizer into a Ryder rental truck.

It all go back to being aware of your surrounding, being observant and using common sense to keep apprised of potential dangers around you and your loved ones.
 
There's a difference between profilling based on character, action, dress, etc. and profiling based on race/ethnicity.

Scenario A) Man walks into bank with ski mask on, gun in hand.

Scenario B) A minority walks into a bank.

Profiling A would be smart. Profiling B would be wrong.
 
The problem with profiling is that it gets innocent people in trouble. An excellant and almost humorous example was when the cops in FL stopped a man for being black and having an expensive car. Although he fit the profile of a drug dealer, they were embarassed to learn he was a D. A. ! :eek:
 
Scenario A) Man walks into bank with ski mask on, gun in hand.

Scenario B) A minority walks into a bank.

Scenario C) A person walks into a bank with ski mask on during a very cold day, clutching a frozen wad of bills and a deposit slip in a mittened hand- you can't tell the person's ethnicity, but you suspect that the person is either a female Samoan undercover officer, or an elderly Kyrgyzstani gentleman bank robber.

??? :uhoh: ???

Scenario D) Sorry, July 4th- the bank is closed today.

.
 
The racial thing always comes up in profiling but what if a LEO stops a carload of young white guys driving around in a predominately black or hispanic neighborhood in the middle of the night? Is that racial profiling. It sure looks strange. I think most cops use common sense when something doesn't look right.
 
Everyone in this thread should see the movie Crash and pay close attention to the opening car jacking scene. It is a great movie.
 
The problem with profiling is that it gets innocent people in trouble. An excellant and almost humorous example was when the cops in FL stopped a man for being black and having an expensive car. Although he fit the profile of a drug dealer, they were embarassed to learn he was a D. A. !
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So what? No harm done, as I suppose they didn't haul him off to prison or strip-searched him just because he was a black dude in an expensive car...

At least it'd be perfectly fine over here to stop him. According to German law I can conduct a simple traffic stop whenever I see fit, just for the purpose of checking the driver's license, registration and doing a brief safety inspection of the vehicle. And during the stop I have more than enough time and opportunity to determine if there is cause for further actions (based on the grounds that all the good folks mentioned earlier in this thread ).


Regards,

Trooper
 
So what? No harm done, as I suppose they didn't haul him off to prison or strip-searched him just because he was a black dude in an expensive car...

At least it'd be perfectly fine over here to stop him. According to German law I can conduct a simple traffic stop whenever I see fit, just for the purpose of checking the driver's license, registration and doing a brief safety inspection of the vehicle. And during the stop I have more than enough time and opportunity to determine if there is cause for further actions (based on the grounds that all the good folks mentioned earlier in this thread ).
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Oh, I SO want to say something here...
(but I won't)

:D

.
 
TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- A state police sergeant claims top brass discouraged chasing vehicles on the Garden State Parkway because they feared being accused of racial profiling.

Sgt. Richard Gacina, who claims he was disciplined for engaging in three motor vehicle pursuits on the parkway, is suing the force and top law enforcement officials. His lawsuit claims state police began discouraging chases after a 1999 agreement with federal authorities to end the practice of stopping motorists based on their race.

''State troopers were discouraged from becoming involved in any motor vehicle pursuits, even when the wrongdoers were committing a violation in front of a state trooper.''

Gacina claims that after engaging in three pursuits he was criticized by superiors for violating procedures. He said he has been harassed by supervisors since then.
 
I agree with the above comments on behavior profiling being OK and required, but not racial, looks, or dress profiling.

Taking the racial profiling a step further, it opens a hole for the smartest of our enemies to walk through.

29 years ago today Israeli commandos rescued hostages held by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) (and by the Ugandan government) at Entebbe airport. Most people have heard of the rescue. Most people forget the PFLP used two Europeans and one South American among the 4 terrorists that hijacked the Air France Flight (3 additional terrorists of Arab origin joined the group in Uganda.) They used non-Arabs for the hijacking because the knew Air France was using racial profiling to check for terrorists, and the PFLP picked people they know would waltz right through the security profiling. (I may have the numbers wrong; memory the second thing to go when you get old.)

You all remember John Walker Lindh? The loony California kid who converted the Islam? So far so good, but he went to Afghanistan and ended up fighting for Al-Qaeda.

David Hicks, an Australian of British origin, also converted to Islam, and is now in Guantanamo Bay, also for fighting for Al-Qaeda.

The first step to defeat is to underestimate your enemy. Al-Qaeda has proven it self extremely capable is assessing our security, and finding the holes. And they can recruit people that that don’t fit any racial profile we care to use. Using racial profiling is like building a 3 sides of a wall, and thinking the enemy will not attack from the 4th side, because they have not done so in the past.

[Edited to change "3rd" to "4th" in last sentence.]
 
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Turns out it was NOT needed. They were just hungry and ordered food with no problems. Just the same, I feel I took the right steps: got my loved one away from possible danger without making him scared, put myself in a covered position to call for help and engage if needed but I had to wonder if I was wrongfully typecasting young Latino males. I have mixed feelings about it and wonder what my friends here think about profiling and situational awareness.
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Years ago the Modified Motorcycle Association used to gather at the fairgrounds in Hanford, CA. My wife and I were having dinner when a large group of bikers and their women came into the restaruant. The owner, a good friend, said, "What should I do?"

I said, "Wait on them. They look hungry."

The owner later said they were the nicest customers, were very polite, and tipped handsomely.

Looks can be deceiving.

Pilgrim
 
Very true. I guess that we don't have to worry about folks who dress like Ken Lay (sp?). ;)
Biker
 
"The racial thing always comes up in profiling but what if a LEO stops a carload of young white guys driving around in a predominately black or hispanic neighborhood in the middle of the night? Is that racial profiling. It sure looks strange. I think most cops use common sense when something doesn't look right."

Hey, that happened to me too. I was going to see the Weatherby factory in South LA many years ago. I got there and found that they had closed the week before, so I turned to leave. I saw in the distance a landmark, the Watts Towers, "oh neato, I want to see them." I drove over there, and was looking arround when a big unmarked car drove up. It was the LAPD Crash division. They told me to beat it, and I did.
Mauserguy

PS: I think the detective, a older latino fellow, was concerned about my safety in that 'hood.
 
LaEscopeta,
Using racial profiling is like building a 3 sides of a wall, and thinking the enemy will not attack from the 3rd side, because they have not done so in the past.
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Agreed, sort of. However, you can't overlook or turn your back on the likely. In this case, profiling is just a tool like anything else, a tool to make sure all 4 sides of your wall are covered as well as they can be. Profiling is used for fighting Al Qaeda just as we use race to infiltrate for intelligence. Just tools.
 
There you go. If I see a car with Eastern European license plates driving around our rural small town at 3 a.m. I'm damn well going to stop it
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ahah. thats funny. here in the states we call that offense "driving while black" "DWB" it seems zee germans call it "driving while eastern european"

I'm glad I don't live in Germany.

atek3
 
one does oneself a disservice to judge others by the behavior of those they resemble, rather than the actual behavior on hand.

or, to look at it from another perspective: from time to time, i read something that reminds me that i'd rather not be judged based on the behavior of certain other white, male, gun owning americans... even on the high road.

(and with all due respect to trooper, i agree with atek3)
 
Profiling is bad. Avoiding the appearance of profiling, because you don't want to appear racist, is worse.

I used to drive through the Border Patrol checkpoint on I-15 north of San Diego county every day, and watched several carloads of tourists (usually families) get pulled over, while numerous cars with Baja license plates and 5-8 young, male, Hispanic (and obviously nervous) occupants went through scott free.

I also find it annoying that respectable appearing, older men and women (black, white, Arab, Asian, and Hispanic) get pulled into the "closer inspection" line at the airport more than the obvious angry-young-man types. I assume this is because the TSA doesn't want to get slammed with a "profiling" accusation, but still must justify it's existence.

I profile every day, and so does everyone else, if they're paying attention. You did good.

S/F

Farnham
 
Good Profiling: Recognizing common factors that create a possible threat.

Bad Profiling: The fact that cops frequently pull me over for lame excuses in my wife's Japanese car, (Unmodified, but I MUST be a Street Racer,) but I can drive Hell for Leather in my SUV, and I am nearly invisible to them.

Good Profiling: What Captain Mike did with his son.

Bad Profiling: A cop stopping a Black buy in a nice car because he is a Black guy in a nice car.

The truth of the matter is that cops can and will pull you over for the silliest of reasons if they think they need to. Is it right? No. Is it legal? Well, unless the cop is an idiot, yes. And in reality, their ability to tell when something isn't right helps them get some scumbags off the street for a bit.

Everytime I see the gumballs flashing, I sigh. But I maintain my respectful attitude and show Herr Officer my papers and then go about my day. And then I laugh about his retarded excuse for pulling me over and hope that he finds whatever the hell he is looking for in the next car he pulls over.

(As a footnote, please do not mistake my comments for cop-bashing, I have had plenty of decent cops who helped me out, or let me go with a warning when I got caught over the limit. Those guys tend to balance out the pencil-necked geeks who need to push someone around. Plus some of my best friends became LEOs after they left the Corps, and their stories give me a different perspective.)
 
If they were dressed/acting like that, they should expect it. They want to be (assuming they're not) gang members, they'll be treated like they are by others.
 
ahah. thats funny. here in the states we call that offense "driving while black" "DWB" it seems zee germans call it "driving while eastern european"

I'm glad I don't live in Germany.
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Well, a lot of the organized crime over here are being committed by Eastern European gangs/syndicates. Actually it's quite possible to trace different types of crime to gang/organisations of different nationalities. In the past we've had predominantly Romanian gangs doing burglaries in residential areas, Polish and Lithuanian organsiations specializing in car theft and Russians and Albanians running the prostitution business.

For the sake of PC I'll add that I don't attribute their behaviour to their nationality. I traveled to some of those countries, met some very nice folks there and also had a very good working relationship with Polish law enforcement in my last job as a Border Police officer.

But if I have an ongoing burglary series in my county and encounter a car with three young men and a license plate that fits the profile at 3 o' clock in the morning I'd be stupid not to stop it.


Regards,

Trooper
 
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