Old RCBS Dies

[mikemyers]

Does anyone here have a very old set of instructions for RCBS dies? Something that dates back to 1980 or so?

I've been talking to John Thor at RCBS, trying to figure out what dies I have, how to set them up in the press, and why these dies don't match up with the explanation and set-up information in my instruction booklets. John explained things to me over the phone, after I sent him photos:

First, #18608, 3-die set, .44 Magnum and .44 Special.
These are old style RCBS dies that can be used for both 44 Special and 44 Magnum. They are steel dies, so the brass needs to be lubricated.

• The #1 die at the left does the decapping and the re-sizing.
• The #2 (middle) die flares out the top of the case.
• The #3 die (at the right) seats and crimps the bullet.

There are two “seaters” (that go in the #3 die, at the right). The one I used 30 years ago has a recess with a flat bottom, that seems to match the cast lead bullets I shot long ago which have a flat “nose”. The seater that was in the plastic bag, along with the spacer ring for 44 Magnum, has a rounded recess, presumably to seat jacketed bullets that have a rounded end.

 

[mikemyers]

The next photo was of a #18305 three-die-set for 38 Special Round Nose.

These are old style RCBS dies that can be used only for 38 Special. They are steel dies, so the brass needs to be lubricated.

• The #1 die at the left only does the resizing
• The #2 die in the middle flares the case, and does de-capping. ***
• The #3 die (at the right) seats and crimps the bullet.

***I’ve taken #2 die apart, and I can understand how it works – but I have no instructions on how to adjust it. All my instruction sheets have the decapping being done in the #1 die at the left – but we’re doing it here in the middle position, #2. Is there anything in writing that explains how to make all the settings?

 

[mikemyers]

The final die set I asked about was the #18308 three die set for .45 ACP. It includes a fourth die, as shown below...

These are old style RCBS steel dies, so the brass needs to be lubricated.

• The #1 die only does the resizing
• The #2 die only flares the end of the case
• The #3 die only seats the bullet.
• The #4 die is only for crimping the bullet in place.

I've got two "seaters", one for round nose bullets, and one for flat nose.

 

[mikemyers]

I've found user manuals for the die sets on-line, but nothing old enough.....

 

[JimKirk]

Mike ... pretty sure I have that same set of dies(top photo) except with a carbide sizer ....

They are down at the shop and it is flooding here ... be glad to check in the morning .... 99% sure that the instruction are still in the box ...

 

[IWAC]

The newer RCBS dies are about the same as newer ones. I want to say the differences are more cosmetic than anything else. It's been years since I bought my first RCBS die set, and I'm sure a set of modern-day instructions would give enough information to get you started. Reloadng dies have worked the same way since Adam, it seems.

 

[JimKirk]

Mike … maybe I can help with the .44 set....

#1 Die … back the deprime stem out(up) just to make sure it does not hit the web of the case …. screw the die until it makes good contact with the shellholder... lock it down … put a lubed case and raise the ram all the way up … screw the deprime stem down a little at a time until the primer pops out …you will have to lower the ram a little to turn the stem... with the case all the way up … lock the nut on the stem while the case is up....

#2 Die screw the die down leaving a gap about a nickle sized between it and the ram … lock it down … unscrew the flare stem(up) … raise a case all the way up … screw the flare stem down until you get the right flare you want.... you will have to lower the ram a little to turn the stem

#3 Die Back the seater stem out somewhat ….Screw die down leaving a ¼” gap … raise a case(primed, charged) and bullet … screw seater stem down until the bullet is seated to middle* of cannalure.... back the seater stem back out somewhat …. screw the die down until you get a proper crimp … lock the die down.... with ram up … screw the seater stem in until you feel it touch the top of the bullet … you may have to make slight adjustments to get a crimp and bullet seated …. trimmed cases help this...

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks; will print out your instructions, and will try this - just need to get some reloading supplies first. Maybe I can do that this weekend.

 

[witchhunter]

Jim just gave you perfect instructions for your RCBS dies. The last two digits on the top of your die sets are the date of manufacture. Also, note that Jim said to lock the deprimer rod down while the case is still in the die, that is important to center it. Always lock down the stem on any die with a case in the die and the ram up with pistol cases. On bottleneck dies make sure the expander ball is in the neck when you lock it down. Those are not carbide dies, so make sure you lube cases before sizing. Size first, then bell, prime and charge with powder, seat bullet and crimp. Start low and work up still applies for safety.

 

[JimKirk]

The .38 Special set will work the same basic way except that when you set the correct flare in #2 die the primer will be pushed out ....

The .45 die set is pretty much the same except the crimp and seating is in separate dies...

 

[JimKirk]

I forgot to add the * note .... I like to seat my bullets just a "fuzz" past the center of the cannalure... the reason I do this is ... the brass shortens just a "fuzz" when you crimp and will end up not being in the middle ... for the .44 mag I want a very good crimp to hold ...

 

[JimKirk]

Lube tip ...

I take a gallon ziplock bag .... place a handful or two of brass in it ... spray with "OneShot"*... close bag ... roll brass around several times ... dump out on a cardboard box top and let them dry a while .... add more cases as you need and spray a few more sprays .... the bag will keep lube off everything but the case and you don't get it everywhere.... I even do this with my carbide dies .... makes them size slick as owl snot...

* I do not use "Oneshot" or the like on bottle neck(rifle) cartridges except the 357 SIG... this is the only use I have for "it"....

 

[mikemyers]

......The last two digits on the top of your die sets are the date of manufacture........

Fascinating - so my 38 Special dies date back to 1974.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding lube.... I used to use the RCBS lube tube on the flat pads. The end result is very "sticky" fingers. What do you guys wash your hands with to get rid of it?

I never heard of "Oneshot". Is it better than the RCBS lube, or just easier to use?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have some old steel Pacific brand die. I retired them long ago for something with a carbide sizer.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Handwashing...

Mike Myers--I used to use the RCBS lube myself. It washed off with hot water and nice sudsy soap, or dishwashing detergent.

That was before I discovered Imperial Sizing Die Wax. No messy pad, no gooey lube. Just a smear of ISDW on your fingers, rub the case all around, and done. Fingers still icky, but ISDW also washes off with hot water and detergent. A little of this lube goes a LONG way.

Still have the RCBS lube and pad kit. Haven't used it for years. Don't like the idea of spray-can lubes, and since I'm very happy with the Imperial I haven't experimented further.

Re: Colt Python Elite's comment: I have steel sizing dies, too. And haven't used them for straight-wall pistol cases since I got my carbide sizer. That eliminated the need for any lube, ever, unless FL sizing rifle cases. You might want to consider investing in a carbide die...

 

[mikemyers]

Smokey Joe - went to look it up on the internet, and right at the top of the search results was this letter from RCBS:

Hi Jeff:
Return the die to us and we will remove the stuck case and replace any
damaged components. You want to avoid lube that is wax based or has any
wax products in the ingredients. 95% of the stuck cases we get back
here are due to wax based lube.

What happens is that the wax builds up inside the die and is like rubber
cement in there and the cases will get stuck every time. Your die is
under warranty and there is no problem sending it back to us. Have a
great day!​

I guess I can ask John at RCBS for his advice tomorrow....

Regarding carbide dies, all of that is down the road a ways. Right now, I'd like to be actually reloading something, before the end of this month. Once I'm up and running, I can consider ways to improve.

 

[JimKirk]

Mike ... OneShot is Hornady's brand of spray lube ... it has some what tainted history ... not because of the product ... but the user's lack of reading/following directions... it is a lanolin/alcohol based type product ... it is supposed to be sprayed on and allowed to dry(the Alcohol evaporates leaving the lanolin on the brass...

It does work well on pistol/straight wall cases ... if used correctly ... as I said above ... I even do a light spray even when using carbide dies ... slick as owl snot ...

I use Imperial Wax on all my rifle cartridges ...

 

[JimKirk]

Hi Jeff:
Return the die to us and we will remove the stuck case and replace any
damaged components. You want to avoid lube that is wax based or has any
wax products in the ingredients. 95% of the stuck cases we get back
here are due to wax based lube.

What happens is that the wax builds up inside the die and is like rubber
cement in there and the cases will get stuck every time. Your die is
under warranty and there is no problem sending it back to us. Have a
great day!

I'd call Horse Hockey to this .... I would bet that most of the struck cases they get is from not using any lube/failing to lube or misuse of some lube products ...

I do clean my dies from time to time with carb cleaner or ether ... just make sure to oil the dies afterwords or the rust will be bad ...

 

[witchhunter]

I think most stuck cases are caused by no lube or not enough lube. Actually, a lot of them are caused by One Shot being used wrong if the posts on here are correct. Yes those 38 dies are 1974 models. Remember to get a good roll crimp on your revolver cases. You want just enough with a taper crimp on your 45ACP cases. The ACP headspaces on the case mouth, so just enough to hold a bullet, not enough to pinch it too tight.

 

[Wil Terry]

Shucks, I use RCBS dies from the fifties and sixties all the time no big deal !!! ANY of their given dies woirk the same even though it MIGHT be in different order. IT ain't no big deal, and YOU can tell which is which and what by simply LOOKING and percieving.
Stuff like this use to drive Jay Postman crazy and probably put him in an early grave, God rest his soul.
And so it goes...

 

[fguffey]

Does anyone have a very old set of instructions for 'OLD DIES'?

Dies from the 80s are old? If for some reason instructions are not available let me know.

F. Guffey

 

[mikemyers]

.....ANY of their given dies woirk the same even though it MIGHT be in different order. IT ain't no big deal, and YOU can tell which is which and what by simply LOOKING and percieving......

Gee. Anything is easy once you know how to do it. Had you asked me a month ago what the dies are, and what they do, you'd have laughed at my answer. I'm lucky if I can remember stuff from yesterday, let alone 25 years ago. Even back then, I didn't really understand - the fellow who taught me showed me what goes in what order, and he did the "magic" stuff so it was presumably all set up correctly.

So many things I've been wrong about. I thought I knew what gets done, in what order, but John at RCBS told me what to do with the dies I've got, and the order in which things are done is not the same for the four sets I was concerned about. Mistake #1, assuming that there was ONE order in which to work on the shells.

I've got four instruction booklets from RCBS, and they all appear to be the same. None of the ones I have apply to my "38 special" three die set. I'm one of the goofy people who assumes I should follow instructions like this exactly as written. That's why I was asking for someone who might have old instructions. (To me, 44 Special was just like 38 Special, but bigger. I still can't understand why the depriming is done in a different order, or why RCBS would have changed the order....)

John, at RCBS, told me that they had changed the design of the dies over the years, and the order in which things are done. Wil, I tried to "look and perceive", and thought I had it right, but my 44 dies punch out the old primer in the first "station", but my 38 Special dies do this in the second "station". Total confusion, as I never dreamed that something that basic would be changed this way.


'fguffey', John, at RCBS, called them "old", so that's how I'm referring to them. I guess the word "old" has different meanings for different people. I don't think of a 1957 Chevy as being "old", but that's because when I grew up, they were very common. It's my "issue", as I'm sure those cars look as old to kids today, as a 1930's car does to me.


Back to the present - does anyone here know the reason WHY a company like RCBS would change things around the way they did? Was it to save money, or was there a good reason for doing things in the new order?


By the way, JimKirk - your explanations sound a lot easier (for a newcomer) to understand than those from RCBS in their booklets!

 

[Zeke/PA]

Almost all of my reloading dies are from the early 60's era mostly RCBS with set or two of LACHMILLERS thrown in.
I'll check and see if there's any instructions in the origional boxes.
Perhaps a fellow reloader could help you in person as this dose'nt seem like a giagantic task.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Stuck cases...

I'd have to agree--Stuck cases are almost always caused by NO lube. I have stuck one or 2 myself that way. Have never heard any accusations against Imperial Sizing Die Wax prior to this--Normally what your hear is universal praise for it.

I think that Jim Kirk is correct in saying that dies ought to be cleaned once in a while, and oiled afterwards. That would avoid any "waxy build-up" that might occur.

And I'm glad that you are considering investing in a carbide sizing die. If/when you get one and start using it, you'll wish you had done so earlier. The only straight-wall carbide sizing die that wants you to use lube is the .30 Carbine die, I imagine due to the thickness of the case walls. Otherwise, with straight-wall cases, no mess, no fuss, no cleanup. What's not to like??

 

[mikemyers]

......And I'm glad that you are considering investing in a carbide sizing die. If/when you get one and start using it, you'll wish you had done so earlier.......

If you mean me, I'm considering a lot of things, including the new 5-station RCBS progressive press when it comes out, but right now, I just want to start using my old gear again. I already have it, it worked fine before, so the weak link in the chain is me, not the gear.

It's like with cameras. Cameras are not the end, just the means to the end. The end is the photographs. A better camera will NOT create better photographs - it's the photographer who has to do that. For reloading, as long as everything is done properly and safely, I'm perfectly willing to use less convenient gear right now, as I already have it, and it did the job back in the 1980's for me. If I'm buying anything "new", I'll get the best I can afford, but I don't want to start replacing anything until I know more about what I'm doing, and am actually doing it, not just sitting here writing about doing so....


I am so wrong about so many things..... what I expected to be difficult isn't, and what I expected to be easy (buying primers and powder) is anything but. I hope to find a small amount of both over the next week.