Old S-4198 powder- load data?

[fatelk]

I been reloading for a couple decades, and have used a lot of different powders, but now I'm going through some OLD powders I got from an estate several years ago.

One can is Hodgdon's Rifle Powder S-4198, in the old yellow-and-red can. On the back it says "Use regular 4198 canister data (This is SALVAGE 4198)".

It looks and smells fine, and looks like 4198 (grain size and shape). I decided to use it up, and work up a plinking load in .223 with 55gr. fmj pulled bullets for a mini14. I loaded a few rounds with the heaviest being 21.5gr., but the highest velocity was only 2700 fps.

I'm sure this is very old powder, likely WWII surplus; the can looks like it's from the 40's or 50's. It's just one pound of powder and I know there will be replies such as "dump it" and "makes great fertilizer". The value of the powder is not a big deal, mostly I'm curious.

Questions for the gunpowder experts out there: was surplus 4198 different from modern H4198?
Can powder loose its strength over the decades without any visible sign of deterioration?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, your load is over max according to current Hodgdon data.

But the velocity sounds within reason out of an 18.5" mini-14.

My most memorable experience with old Hodgdon surplus powder was with H4895 about 1962.

After buying it in a brown paper bag for about a year, I bought some new stuff in the fancy new can.
The first shot blew a primer and stuck the bolt shut in my 03 Springfield.

rc

 

[fatelk]

the velocity sounds within reason out of an 18.5" mini-14

I disagree. My old plinking load clocks at 3000 fps with the same bullet out of the same barrel, though I should say that I was working them up in a more accurate rifle with a 20" barrel. I can't imagine a 300 fps drop for 1.5" of barrel.
I only mentioned the Mini 14 to say that accuracy is not a big deal with this load. "Minute-of-tin-can" is all I'm looking for.

I didn't see any sign of high pressure with any of them, so I'm inclined to think that this powder has lost something, or never had it to begin with.

 

[NCsmitty]

fatelk, whatever you decide about the powder, save the original can as they are becoming collectibles to some people.


NCsmitty

 

[loadedround]

Rcmodel called it. I too verified your load and it is over max! It's your eyes, your fingers, and your rifle if you want to continue.

 

[fatelk]

Y'all are missing the point. I should not have listed my load, I guess.

If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that loading manuals are a guide not a recipe. You are responsible for working up your own load and ensuring your own safety. Reloading companies change their data over the years, for one reason or another.

With extreme caution, sometimes it's OK to excede the max listed charge (My opinion only!), and on the other hand sometimes the listed max is horribly dangerous in your particular firearm.

I have numerous manuals, from relatively new ('90s) to rather old ('50s). They list a max charge (4198, 55gr bullet in .223 Rem) of anywhere from 21.0grains to 22.7 grains. My #26 Hodgdon manual lists 21.5 as max.

I was carefully working up the load by watching velocity and pressure signs, so I really don't think the is really necessary.

The thought crossed my mind to use this powder for plinking ammo even though the chronograph tells me something is definitely wrong, but then I realize that some type of deterioration must have occured over the years and it's just not worth messing with.

I wonder what these old cans are worth, empty? I have several of them.

 

[Jimfern]

what cans are worth

Throw them on ebay and you will probably get more than they are worth.

 

[iiranger]

Yes and Yes...

" Questions for the gunpowder experts out there: was surplus 4198 different from modern H4198?
Can powder loose its strength over the decades without any visible sign of deterioration? "

The government bought powder and worked up loads in labs and it has NO basic relation to the commercial burn rate of IMR 4198 or H4198 of today. What got surplused to Mr. H, wellll

Yes, surplus is different. If Bruce, Sr. said use book 4198 data, then you need a book from back then... That should work fine. Today's books? Good question. They seem to be alot more conservative to me... but who asked me?

Hodgdon takes questions by email and can be most helpful with old stuff like this. I still have a small part of a can of H240 given me... surplus 2400 by H... (and a couple H4895 paper sacks, unless they have flaked away...)

Can powder, properly stored, change over the years? Basically it loses solvents. Alcohol? Acetone? Ether? Organic solvents that are volatile. How much does that change things? Good question. I would not be afraid to shoot it, but with the crazy collector interest, you might be able to sell it for enough to buy 8 lbs of the new stuff or more... Your call. Luck.