Old S&W M&P: safety question

[Shear_stress]

Gave into temptation recently and got a five-inch barrel S&W M&P in 38 Special, serial number S837XXX. After referring to the Standard Catalog, the production date seems to be approximately 1946. As a result, it's got kind of an interesting combination of pre-war (long-action, "Made in the USA" stamp) and post-war features (improved hammer drop safety).

It's a handsome, rust-free gun. The finish on the barrel and cylinder has worn down to a smooth, brown patina, resulting in a nice "two-tone" effect. Must have spent a lot of time riding in a holster. In addition, it sports two strange engravings on either side of the frame, concealed by a pair of old Franzite grips. The engraving looks like three stylized initials (DGR??) that, together, resemble an image of a person (!?). Whatever it is, it is well-done. It also makes me wish this piece could talk.

Anyway, the action is very smooth and seems pretty tight. There is an acceptable b/c gap of nine to ten thousanths. However, I see two possible issues. One is that, when cocked very slowly in single action, the cylinder stop doesn't quite engage positively. It seems to happen where two cylinder notches are slightly peened. The second issue the forcing cone: there is an odd machined bevel on the right side, like someone ran an endmill across the the outside surface. Fortunately, the cut doesn't interfere with the inner diameter of the cone.

I am having a gunsmith inspect the M&P before I fire it. However, do any of these issues seem like serious safety risks?

Thanks!

 

[J Miller]

To me these don't seem like a big problem. But you did good to have a gunsmith give it the once over. I'd defer to his opinion.

I once had a 5" Victory Model in .38S&W. It was in great shape and the only thing missing was the lanyard loupe. A local gunsmith gave it a clean bill of health and even had a replacement loupe that fit. It got fired a bunch. It wasn't perfect, but the minor problems it had were of no functional consequence.


Joe

 

[FPrice]

I think you are doing the best thing you can do, actually have a gunsmith do a hands- and eyes-on inspection. There are a few guys here whom I trust to give you good online advice, but even they would most likely recommend an actual physical inspection.

You might want to post this over on the Smith & Wesson forum

http://www.smith-wessonforum.com

They have a lot of S&W-specific expertise which might help.

That is quite a find, congratulations. Now you need to post a picture for us Smith & Wesson fans.

 

[Shear_stress]

Thanks for your help.

I am going to run the gun by a gunsmith this afternoon. The store I bought it from made the mistake of giving it a thirty day warranty, so any repairs will be on their dime. I hope it doesn't come to that, though.

Like a lot of these guns, mine isn't in showroom condition, but it has character in spades. Once it gets a clean bill of health, I'll post a range report. Afterall, I didn't buy a wall hanger!

 

[Old Fuff]

If you have one of the “long action” transitional model’s you’re very fortunate, because it represents the best of two worlds.

The conditions you described don't represent serious safety risks, but they should be atended to.

The problem with the cylinder rotation on two chambers can be addressed two ways. The ratchet on those two chambers can be slightly peened to kick up a burr so the hand will be able to push a little longer. Or an extra wide hand can be installed and the ratchet adjusted as necessary. I believe the hands might still be available at (www.e-gunparts.com).

The barrel problem is more difficult. The best solution would be to have the barrel face squared and set back to close the gap to around .400” and then cut a new forcing cone. Before doing any of this be sure there is a tight fit with no play between the yoke and frame when the cylinder is latched, and that the cylinder doesn’t have any excessive end play.

To better learn what all of this is about, go to (www.brownells.com) or (www.gunbooks.com) or (www.amazon.com) and buy a copy of the following book that fully explains everything you need to know: “The S&W Revolver – A Shop Manual” by Jerry Kuhnhausen.

 

[Shear_stress]

Thanks, Fuff. You can always be counted on for this kind of information!

Today, I took the M&P to two smiths, one at the store I bought the gun at, and an independent guy. The independent smith said that the timing issue wasn't really a problem because a gun of that age is essentially a wall hanger that should be shot infrequently at best. The first smith (at the store where I purchased the gun) basically said the same thing. However, because the store has a 30-day warranty, he grudgingly offered to fix the problem as best he could. The store didn't get a lot of money out of the gun, so they weren't thrilled with putting money back into it.

I'd rather have a shooter than a wall-hanger. Should I take the store up on the offer? Or, should I avoid shooting the gun much lest something else break?

 

[Standing Wolf]

...a gun of that age is essentially a wall hanger that should be shot infrequently at best.

Baloney! Once it's coaxed back into shape, there's no reason that gun shouldn't be taken to the range every week for a couple hundred rounds' worth of exercise for the next three or four decades.

 

[Shear_stress]

Baloney!

Agreed. What I am really encountering is a reluctance to work on an old gun that isn't worth a ton of money, especially when the store will be lucky to break even on it. Oh well. With the amount of merchandise they move, I doubt they will be hurting. Cabelas ain't exactly a mom and pop operation.

I think I will take the M&P back to them to address that slight cylinder locking issue. How often do you get warranty work done on a 60-year-old gun?

 

[Old Fuff]

Shear_stress:

First of all if that revolver is so old it shouldn't be shot this poor Old Fuff is in serious trouble ... because the first one I bought was purchased when it was brand new ...

I wouldn't take this gun back to either of these so-called 'smiths. The problem is that one was delighted when you walked out with that "piece of junk," and the other one doesn't really want to touch it. I suspect neither of them really know what too do. What they will do is mess up and make things worse.

Assuming that the problems under discussion are attended to, there is no reason you shouldn't shoot it, so long as you stay away from +P loads. No, the gun won't blow up, but over time you would beat it to death.

During World War Two, Smith & Wesson manufactured what were called "Victory Models." This was nothing less then the Military & Police model they'd made since 1905, with a Parkerized finish and plain, uncheckered walnut grips. The only problem was that the safety block that was supposed to prevent an accidental discharge could get disabled by dirt or fouling. In late 1944 this was corrected when a new design of hammer block was introduced that was identical to the one they still used today.

Alter the war S&W continued to make an upgraded Victory Model as the regular commercial Military & Police. While it had the new hammer block it retained S&W famous "long action" which had - then and now- the best possible double action. But at the time most users were more interested in thumb-cocking, so the company introduced a new "short action" where the hammer didn't have to be pulled back so far, but in the process ended up with a heavier double-action because the hammer didn't move through the long arc that made it possible to reduce spring tension without effecting reliability. The short action was introduced in 1947, so a whole lot of the long-action/post-war guns weren't made.

So those who know this, (including the Old Fuff in particular) always keep an eye out, and when they find one of these relatively hard to find guns, they jump!!

If you need to replace the hand, be aware that your gun uses that same kind as those made until recently with the hammer mounted on the nose. Parts can, for the most part (pardon the pun) be obtained from Numrich -The Parts Corp. at www.e-gunparts.com

All your revolver needs is to be tuned up a bit, and maybe have the barrel set back. There are real gunsmiths out there that can do this. It could be refinished, but this isn't necessary. Clean chambers and bore are. If I had that revolver I'd have more fun rebuilding it then buying anything that's on the market (as a new gun) now.

Oh, and as people begin to understand what these guns are the value isn't exactly going down ... Obviously the folks at Cabelas weren't bright enough to understand what they had.

 

[Shear_stress]

Thanks again. Your advice is great.

Though it shared a case with scads of other pistols, that M&P just spoke to me. It had been in there a day or two, apparently, and had been marked as a "Model 10". I saw the half-moon front sight and realized that the store didn't know what they had. Actually, this is only partially true. The salesperson who showed me the gun was much more savvy than whoever tagged it. When he brought it out for me, he expressed this with an "Oops. No, that really isn't a Model 10."

With a lot of local smiths unwilling to touch the older stuff for some reason, I talked to the factory. I'll probably just ship it back to them for a tune-up. They did an excellent job with another five-screw of mine.

 

[FPrice]

"Oops. No, that really isn't a Model 10."

Well, in a sense it is a Model 10.

In the beginning there was a great void. And this void was filled by the "front-stuffers" and the belchers of great clouds of sulphuric smoke.

And the Lord was pleased.

But the people cried out in their agony, "Give us repeaters Oh Lord so that we may spare our ramrods."

So the Lord brought forth his disciples, the one called "Smith" and the one called "Wesson" and commanded them to go forth and produce the "repeater".

And the one called "Smith" and the one called "Wesson" labored mightily until they produced the "Volcanic".

And the Lord was pleased.

But the people were still sorely vexed and cried out to the Lord, saying. "Lord, give us larger calibers so that we may smite our targets with larger bullets".

And the Lord commanded that the one called "Smith" and the one called "Wesson" to go forth and produce larger "repeaters".

And the one called "Smith" and the one called "Wesson" labored mightily until they produced the "breaktops". And lo they produced them in various sizes and different calibers.

And the Lord was please.

But the people were still beset with plagues and misfires and they again cried out to the Lord.

And the Lord said, "What now?".

And the people beseeched the Lord to deliver them from the agony of having to break open their revolvers to eject their rounds.

So the Lord summoned the one called "Smith" and the one called "Wesson" and commanded them to listen to the people and answer their prayers.

So the one called "Smith" and the one called "Wesson" labored mightily and at last delivered the "hand ejectors".

And the Lord was pleased.

And the "hand ejectors" begat the "Military and Police".

And the "Military and Police" begat the "Victory Model".

And the "Victory Model" begat the "post-war models".

And the "post-war models" begat the "named models".

And the "named models" begat the "Model 10".

And the "Model 10's" descendants were numerous and multiplied like the fruit on the trees and the animals in the field.

And the Lord was pleased.

But the people were still vexed, and said, "Uh, Lord?".

And the Lord was troubled and said, "What the heck do you people want now?".

And the people trembled but asked, "Do these things come in exotic metals like Titanium and Scandium?".

And the Lord banished these people to the land of the "infernal, internal lock" until they could come to their senses and repent.

And that's why what you have is, in a way, a Model 10.

 

[Old Fuff]

I love it ...

I should have explained it that way ...

 

[Old Fuff]

Shear_stress:

Ya' know, if I was in your shoes I'd buy a box of .38 Special "cowboy" loads that come close to duplicating the original .38 cartridge the gun was made to use (158-grain lead, round-nose bullet/800 FPS).

Then I'd head for the range and see how the old-timer shot. Just be sure the cylinder is latched before you pull the trigger. Also expect some sidespit between the barrel and cylinder face. Do wear eye protection.

You might be suprised about how it did, and you haven't come up with any safety issues that concern me.

 

[DillHarris]

This has been a great read. Learned tons. What would have been an original WWII-era loading for this firearm? I'm assuming 158 grain lead projectile. Was it a round nose, semi-wadcutter, or something else? Any ideas on velocity? Old Fuff, was it any different than the cowboy load you mentioned? Just curious. Thanks to all for a great thread.

 

[Shear_stress]

Preach, brother, preach!

After getting some great advance on this forum, I FedExed my M&P off to the S&W for a tune-up. Five-screw fans should send their stuff to Gene, the factory gunsmith who specializes in older wheelguns. He did a fantastic job on my pre-Model 18. I just hope he can coax my M&P back to perfect health!

 

[Old Fuff]

At the time (middle-late 1940's) high performance ammunition hadn't been thought of - unless you count the .38 Special High Speed version (158 grain lead round nose/1100 FPS) that was designed for the S&W 38-44 Heavy Duty revolver, but also used in Colt New Service and Single Action Army revolvers.

"The" round carried by the vast majority of American law enforcement officers was the so-called "Police Load" consisting of a 158 grain lead round bullet going around 870 FPS out of a 6-inch barrel. Most officers carried either a Colt or Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver. The only big-name organization I know of at the time that used .45 pistols was the Texas Rangers - and they carried them cocked & locked, sometimes in pairs.

Edited to add. Most of today's .38 Special "cowboy loads" are very close to the old police standard.

 

[Old Fuff]

Shear Stress:

Since you went to all of that trouble you ought to consider having it refinished. No one can do a better job.

 

[Shear_stress]

Since you went to all of that trouble you ought to consider having it refinished. No one can do a better job.

Right you are. I had the factory refinish my pre-18, and the results were nothing short of amazing. The gun looks exactly as it must have when it was sitting in the case in 1953. We're talking a blueing of a richness and luster lamented by Smithophiles as unobtainable in this age of bead-blasted stainless and clear-coated aluminum. Purists may balk at reblueing an old gun, even at the factory. I shoot my guns rather than invest in them, so I'm not overly concerned about the value.

At the risk of mission creep, I now wonder if I should do the same for my M&P. Of course, at the sound of "factory reblue", my wallet burst of my pocket and took off running.

 

[Old Fuff]

I see no reason to not reblue a Military & Police model made in the 1940's if most of the original finish is gone or degraded. If it had 80% or more of the original finish I might think otherwise. The problem with rebluing some classic S&W revolvers (as well as others) is that prior to World War Two they used an entirely different method to blue guns, and that kind of finish is difficult (and very expensive) too duplicate. The revolver you have was blued using the same process that is used today.

Factory refinishing isn't inexpensive, but the quality depends on how it's polished, and they have the correct wheels intended for the particular model. It's not a case of one-size-fits-all that is common in smaller shops.

In addition to everything else, Jim Supica (co-author of "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson") describes the 5-inch barrel length on this particular variant of M&P as being "scarce". Also, long-action/post war M&P revolvers themselves are not common.

If the mechanical issues are taken care of to your satisfaction, I would seriously consider refinishing.

 

[fecmech]

Old Fuff--This thread may get me in trouble. I was in a local shop yesterday and looked at an old M&P with I think a 6" skinny bbl., 4 screw side plate and the ejector rod with the knob on the end. Good shape with about 85-90% original blueing. It's been in the showcase for years at $179.00 and when I asked to look at it the shop owner said that maybe it was time for a price reduction. I put it back telling him (and not really lying ) i could hardly see the sights anymore. I'm thinking of giving this old guy a home, what do you think? I can probably get it for $150.

 

[FPrice]

Good shape with about 85-90% original blueing. It's been in the showcase for years at $179.00 and when I asked to look at it the shop owner said that maybe it was time for a price reduction.

If by good shape you mean good mechanical condition also it sounds like something to get. Do you recall the serial number by any chance?

 

[fecmech]

Yes it was good mechanically, don't remember all the serial number just that it started with 43. Nick

 

[FPrice]

Go in there with cash and see what you can do.

 

[jondar]

I ordered my M&P from an ad in Shotgun News about 15 years ago. My dealer who handled the FFL transaction tried to talk me out of it. He said the stuff he had seen that came from this particular seller was junk. It was advertized as Good-V.Good. We were both pleasantly surprised when it arrived. Will try to post a picture. The blue is even overall, not mottled like in the picture. I took it to the range almost every weekend till they went out of business. I always wanted one of these since I read the article by the late Bob Nichols on double action shooting. It came in an original box.

 

[Malamute]

Not sure if that sort of thing bothers you, but you just posted your name and address in that picture, if that magazine is yours.

Might want to photoshop that and repost.


Nice Smith tho.