On handguns and bears

[ArtP]

Vastly different animals, and Vastly different tactics

The funny thing for me is how people who's only experience with bears, let alone brown bear, is the TV or maybe the zoo as a kid, want to jump on people who live in bear country, work in bear country, and hunt in bear country.

So, Alaska guys, what type of pocket pistols do you use to pop feral hogs, I was thinking a .25 bauer behind the left ear, the trick is quickly side step and give them your walking stick on the charge to line up the shot......

about as silly, should we start talking out crocodile hunting, maybe even mountain lion...

The reason there's so much debate is because none of us have had to defend against a brown bear. It's all speculation, even from those in AK. I think a large boar is built similar to a griz, they're both tough to put down, what I related had nothing to do with tactic.

What was your point anyway?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Actually you posted while I was typing, I was responding to the mountain lion question

The rest is for the more vocal people who have, over the course of a few threads, consistently argued for the use of handguns against bear, even when people like me from Alaska explain alot of the reasons not to.

I understand that your friend was hunting the hog, but

Now say your friend had fish and game up his rear end about shooting the hog, making him explain why he shot it so many times, why he used that ammo, OH and he has to dress it out and haul it into their office. That is what happens when you shoot a bear defensively (or at least in Alaska) and F&G takes POACHING very seriously, plenty of stories about people loosing their nice big truck over too many kings, or a lack of king stamp.

I was attempting to point out the ABSURDITY of what they advise, really even with hog, you don't go out with a pistol, unless you are hunting it with the pistol, that is different, but why would you tell a fireman to use a garden hose, or a fighter jock a paper airplane, you suggest the best tool for the job.

 

[ArtP]

I see Shadow....

A person is apt to put a rifle down after enough time, while a pistol will likely remain immediately available in a holster if needed.

I like the pistol idea, not because it's a more effective weapon, but because it almost certainly will get used.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I guess cops should carry a rifle or a shotgun on them at all times, too, when in the "field", and might possibly engage a human charging them at any time at 40mph in a car, or armed with AK's or shotguns, which they sometimes do, without warning. Well, I may not be from those sub-zero places that get so cold it affects one's though processes, but I can tell you a cop is not going to carry a shotgun or rifle all the time, and, thus, WILL MAKE DO with what he will carry. I'll bet it's the same with outdoorsmen, wherever they are, when near large bruins. Be it Wyoming, Alaska, or Idaho. Yes, a RIFLE OR SLUG GUN IS SUPERIOR TO A PISTOL (most of the time), but to each, their own. My pistol gives up nothing to a .45-70 rifle. Can I hit a bear charging at top speed and stop him in time? Probably not, but I could get lucky. Hopefully, none of us will ever have to do that. If I don't get but one shot off, and then only as the bear is wrapping his jaws around my hand with the revolver in it, I hope the fireworks and concussion of the .500 S&W will give him a sore throat..................

 

[PH/CIB]

I am no expert, I have hunted bears and moose in Alaska and I carry my bolt action .458 Winchester with 510 grain soft points, although I would not have any problems using the 500 grain solids. It is a comfort to carry that rifle in boulder piles or brush where you might encounter a short range charge. For Grizzly bears you have to hire a guide who will be backing you up with a heavy rifle, for black bears and moose you can hunt without a guide or used to, back when I hunted in Alaska.

Of course you can encounter a Brown or Grizzly at any time doing anything outside, as a large caliber handgun is big and heavy while hunting I prefer a heavy rifle. For fishing a handgun and hopefully a guide with a rifle backing me up, if I was working for the forestry department or fish and game hopefully would have a partner with a second rifle or handgun.

I have a friend who retired from Alaska Fish and Game and is now a commercial fisherman and brown bear guide on a boat hunting Admiralty Island, he started out with a 300 Win Mag, went to a 338 Win Mag, then a 375 Holland and Holland and now uses a 458. A friend of his who also guides on Admiralty, had a client who wounded a brown bear, he went in after it alone, he killed it with a shot from his 416, but the bolt jammed when he tried to get in a quick second shot and while the bear was dying it mauled him practically to death. After he got out of the hospital he went back to being a guide but bought a Mauser Action bolt action rifle in 458 Lott, and then thought what the heck and bought a double rifle in I believe 470 Nitro Express. Of course these guys do it for a living and the rifles were probably a tax write off, I don't do it for a living, but I sure like my 458 Winchester!

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

because none of us have had to defend against a brown bear. It's all speculation, even from those in AK


er no use the search function and see how "misopinioned" you are

 

[saturno_v]

Only a fool would argue that with proper projectiles, a handgun is better than a rifle. Although a .44Mag on the hip is a hell of a lot better than any rifle 20' away leaned up against a tree. My ONLY point in comparing rifles to handguns is to rebutt KodiakBeer's assertation that the .30-30 is vastly superior to the .44Mag based on muzzle energy.

I may agree with you on that (a pistol to the hip it's better than a rifle 20 feet away) but that was not the point of our discussion....my understanding was that you meant to say that a larger caliber bullet kills better than a smaller one, regardless of energy and SD..clearly that is not true going back to my 44 Mag revolver vs. 30-06 rifle against an elephant or, simply, a grizzly bear.
And yes, a 30-30 is a significant superior cartridge in killing power than a 44 Mag fired from a revolver...much higher energy, higher SD....but, again, you fire hardcast bullets with the 44 and slugs made of butter with tha 30 WCF it's a different story....

Can you really with a straight face say that the size of the hole is unimportant??? The fact that component manufacturers sell .243 solids somehow indicates that a .243 solid is better than a .44 solid???

I can say with a straight face that in some circumstances the size of the hole does not matter much.....then we have to consider the size difference itself.....if we are talking about the difference between a 22 cal. solid versus a 45 or 50 cal. solid is one thing...but, for example, I do not believe that between a 308 cal. and a 338 cal bullet, just to make an example, there is all the difference that some people may think...

Again.....yes the wound channel difference between a round or spitzer nosed nosed 30 cal solid bullet and a .73 cal blunt edged 12 ga. shotgun slug would be significant...but remember you need wound channel AND penetration....if against your hypothetical elephant charge your 45-70 fail to reach the brain and my 30-06 gets to the gray matter, wound channel size difference does not matter much....

 

[ArtP]

er no use the search function and see how "misopinioned" you are

I'll be the first to admit I haven't read this entire post, but I have read most of it from the start.

I read your shorthand as, you have experience with brown bears - defensively. If that's really true (I'm guessing because your post is nonsensical), I'm surprised you'd give a limp wristed response and not TOUT your experience. If you don't have first-hand experience, just what are you implying?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

not me but if i were you i'd check a bit you might feel silly but it might be worse if you don't check try looking for just the threads that have pics and are on this topic

 

[CraigC]

And yes, a 30-30 is a significant superior cartridge in killing power than a 44 Mag fired from a revolver...

Based on what, meaningless energy??? I opine that no, it is not. The .44Mag has a significant advantage, with the proper bullet. I also do not know where you get that the .30-30 has a higher sectional density. For from the start I have proposed a 355gr LBT which has an SD of .274 compared to .256 for the 170gr .30-30. The 355gr is comparable to the bullet that penetrated the deepest in the Linebaugh tests, the 430gr .475. Which penetrated more than TRIPLE what your precious 220gr .30-06 did. Also bearing in mind that those high SD rifle bullets only start out that way. The hardcast starts and ends the same. So one cannot say that jacketed and cast bullets of the same SD will penetrate similarly. For they will not, the cast slug will penetrate much deeper.

Do you really have any knowledge of big bore pistols or are you just a rifle shooter with an opinion???

 

[saturno_v]

Based on what, meaningless energy??? I opine that no, it is not. The .44Mag has a significant advantage, with the proper bullet. I also do not know where you get that the .30-30 has a higher sectional density. For from the start I have proposed a 355gr LBT which has an SD of .274 compared to .256 for the 170gr .30-30. The 355gr is comparable to the bullet that penetrated the deepest in the Linebaugh tests, the 430gr .475. Which penetrated more than TRIPLE what your precious 220gr .30-06 did.

Do you really have any knowledge of big bore pistols or are you just a rifle shooter with an opinion???

I was talking about 300 gr. 44 pill not 355 gr. (I do not even know how many firearms chambered for 44 Mag would feed a 355 gr. bullet...definitely not my Mod. 29 or the Marlin lever action rifles).

Do I have any knowledge?? Well I'm the very happy owner and shooter of a S&W 29 with an 8 3/8 barrel....and , as I told you, I witnessed a comparison between a 44 Mag hardcast and a cheap 303 Enfield FMJ....it wasn't even close...

...the 220 gr. 30-06 bullet was SP or solid??

Do yourself a favor...buy a box of Grizzly Cartridge 30-30 170 gr. solids (a bit spendy) and see for yourself how far these babies go....

Then I challenge any of your pistol bullets, coming fro the most powerful cartridges, including a 500 S&W, to outpenetrate a 300 gr. solid .338 fired from my 338 Win Mag.....

Look at the penetration test made with commercial 30-30 ammo (expandable bullets)....through 940 lbs. steer leg bones, 8 layers of carpet and into a solid oak door....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/model94_3030.htm

 

[ArtP]

I'm not clear on your challenge.

You mention 170g, 30-30 stuff then go on to challenge via a 338 mag??

You've been touting the 30-30 all along and now switch to a 338 mag? What gives?

 

[saturno_v]

I'm not clear on your challenge.

You mention 170g, 30-30 stuff then go on to challenge via a 338 mag??

You've been touting the 30-30 all along and now switch to a 338 mag? What gives?

I'm not touting anything..and I wasn't the one mentioning the 30-30 first...read the entire thread...

With a 338 WM I meant to say that no handgun round in this planet will even come close to a a 300 gr. solid coming from a 338 WM....or a 375 H&H for that matter...handgunners love to mix expandable bullets with hardcast...

 

[sonier]

This thread makes me want to draw some brown bear tags and bring an ole 30/30 and 357 mag for sidearm and try to get a record bear lol

 

[ArtP]

I understand.

I think it's common knowledge that a rifle offers a better solution than a handgun, especially when 338's and 375's are brought to the table. But when you're busy fishing or working, you're likely to leave that killing machine away from your person. For this reason coming equipped with a 44 mag makes a lot of sense to me. Ideally, a big rifle, and I'm not a proponent of 12 gauge slugs (becaude they lack SD like hand gun cartridges), AND the big pistol make sense.

I'm in the handgun camp only because if I were there, I'd die (or survive) trying to use it instead of running for my rifle only to be caught be the prey instict of a wild animal.

Background... I camp once a month, rain or shine, in a remote place. I am lazy and frequently leave my rifle 10-20 yards away - but I always have that pistol on my side.

 

[saturno_v]

I understand.

I think it's common knowledge that a rifle offers a better solution than a handgun, especially when 338's and 375's are brought to the table. But when you're busy fishing or working, you're likely to leave that killing machine away from your person. For this reason coming equipped with a 44 mag makes a lot of sense to me. Ideally, a big rifle, and I'm not a proponent of 12 gauge slugs (becaude they lack SD like hand gun cartridges), AND the big pistol make sense.

Art

I agree with you on that....what I do not agree is that some people think that a larger caliber "magically" will give them outstanding penetration.....it is not the case..you need SD and energy....you need "horsepower" to do the job.....no 44 Mag will ever outpenetrate a 30-06 if solid are used in both...

 

[ArtP]

Art

I agree with you on that....what I do not agree is that some people think that a larger caliber "magically" will give them outstanding penetration.....it is not the case..you need SD and energy....you need "horsepower" to do the job.....no 44 Mag will ever outpenetrate a 30-06 if solid are used in both...

The larger calibers do offer a larger "frontal" impact - please excuse that I can't come up with the name for that at the moment.

But penetration is key with dangerous game or we ALL wouldn't be touting round nose or ball ammo in our pistols. No one here is suggesting hollow points for large bear. So it IS all about penetration.

Personally, I switch ammo from solid to hollow point when I camp vs. when I am at home.

 

[CraigC]

I was talking about 300 gr. 44 pill not 355 gr.

Then you need to get with the program. You're talking about one thing and arguing against statements and points I have not even made. Why do you keep bringing up the .30-06 and .338Win Mag???

Well I'm the very happy owner and shooter of a S&W 29 with an 8 3/8 barrel....

Congratulations, I've been a student of this sport for nearly over 20yrs and have been shooting big bores since age 16. This is what I do, what I study, what I lust after and what I spend my money on. I'm unmarried and have no children. I work from home and shoot in my backyard. I shoot nearly every day. If I remember right, I own three dozen sixguns, most of them big bores, several customs and a handful of big bore carbines. So you 'could' say I 'might' know a thing or two but you never know. I'm no expert but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either.

I witnessed a comparison between a 44 Mag hardcast and a cheap 303 Enfield FMJ

This is to be expected. Like I said before, there will be very little tissue damage with the FMJ. Not so with a good .44 cast bullet. So you're majorly handicapping your .303 by using an FMJ just to say it penetrates deeper than the .44. Penetration without tissue damage is useless in stopping a fight. This is external ballistics 101.

...the 220 gr. 30-06 bullet was SP or solid??

You have the link but have obviously not even looked at the chart.

Look at the penetration test made with commercial 30-30 ammo

I'm well versed on the .30-30 and the man that wrote the article. He's now on mission in Mozambique. He would also tell you that you're wrong. I have a 1901 vintage 1894 standing in the corner behind me as I type this, loaded with.....you guessed it, 170gr Remington CorLokt's. I need to load up some more 165gr RNFP-GC's because I like to be gentle to the old gun's rifling.

 

[T2K]

I have zero firsthand experience with bears, although I did hold a Koala once in Australia (not a bear, but often mistakenly referred to as one).

However, this article is another recent experience. Armed and it still didn't help, he lived though:
http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2010/jun/25/training-saves-geologist-mauled-by-grizzly/

 

[saturno_v]

This is external ballistics 101.

It is Terminal ballistics not external ballistics.....wounding profiles, as we discussed, depends mostly the bullet shape.....you admit that a 303 FMJ outpenetrate a hardcast 44 Mag (it is a given) but then you sargue that a 430 gr. .475 bullet outpenetrated tre times a 220 gr. 30-06..so what is the story???

I did actually read the test you linked...for the 30-06 220 gr. they mention this:

30-06 Mt. Baldy RNGC
30-06 Cor Lokt

Now, Core Lokt is the cheapest commercial ammo you can possibly find, VERY soft point....I do not know the Mt. Baldy bullets but either is 1) An expandable bullet or 2) fired from a well reduced load...I suspect it may well be the second because usually hardcast bullet cannot take the beating of leaving the barrel at ~2500 fps, which is just about the velocity for a full house 220 gr. 30-06 bullet.....so that test you posted actually does not really say anything..
The same test shows a poor showing for a 375 H&H firing the same Mt. Baldy bullet (290 gr.)....outranked by what...a 45 Colt?? So what material are these bullet made of...butter??

Now, let me tell you about MY test with a Mosin Magant firing cheap surplus FMJ.....what about passing completely through a live well sized oak???

This is to be expected. Like I said before, there will be very little tissue damage with the FMJ. Not so with a good .44 cast bullet. So you're majorly handicapping your .303 by using an FMJ just to say it penetrates deeper than the .44. Penetration without tissue damage is useless in stopping a fight.

FMJ can be different...they do not come only in spitzer nose fashion (the "easiest" on the tissue, which allow it to "flow" around)...a round nosed is much more damaging....flat nosed even worse...

...He would also tell you that you're wrong.

I'm wrong in what regard?? I just read his test...and a cheap soft point 30-30 bullet went through massive bones, 8 layers of carpet and ended deep in a solid oak door....there is nothing to debate about....

Your handgun rounds can outpenetrate high powered rifle rounds only when they fire solid non deformable bullets....end of the story.....

 

[Cosmoline]

So it IS all about penetration.

I'd say it's about having a firearm first, knowing bear behavior second and hitting the the bear third. Penetration, sectional density, etc. all come after those points. And if you get those points right, you can bring down a lot of bears with some surprisingly minimal hardware. Conversely, having the biggest baddest uber magnum big bore shooting hardcasts means nothing if you can't hit the thing charging you. And the fact is most shooters are simply not good enough with big bore sixguns to hit a charging bear with one. Some are, and some get lucky. But many flat out miss or catch only fur and gristle.

So you're majorly handicapping your .303 by using an FMJ just to say it penetrates deeper than the .44.

With the .303 I'd suggest using the Woodleigh 215 SP's for bear. They're good medicine all around.

 

[ArtP]

Can we just all get along?

Can we just say that going out into bear infested woods to do what one loves is respectable enough? Even if that person only brings a 44 mag?

For fooks sake, I'd say a person armed with a good 357 mag putting muzzle to hide in a life/death situation deserves our praise, wouldn't you say?

If it makes anyone feel better, you both have a point, okay? Bring whacha got - even if its pepper spray!

Personally, I have a big mean-ass german shepherd dog. But when we camp guess who's looking after who? He's the alarm and I'm the muscle. I hope he can be a distraction while I fight in his defense. Dreaming? maybe.

(I always say, between the bitchy girlfriend, the athletic dog and capable weapons - you're done) For clarification I'm 42 w/ a long-time girlfriend.

New thread - bring your dog remote camping - who's looking out for who?

 

[Shadow 7D]

welcome to the fur ball,

Most of this is "my idea of a good gun is better than yours"
people who say live with the bears
they explain it more along "your idea will get you killed and this is why"

see it's whats in your head, or out of it when the bear gets done with you, best bet is just not to get started, second is to know what you are doing, third is how to survive when it all goes wrong, and last is what you are carrying.

 

[ArtP]

Love the "last part"!

 

[cisco11]

My bear rifle is a Win. M 71 in 450 alaskan.A very old cartridge .I load various bullets 500 grs, or so. Pick it apart all you over "Ballisticated" wannabees.
Cisco