On the fence about firearms--for home and personal defense

[JT1JTI]

Do I arm or do I not arm, that's the question.

For the past 15 years, I have lived and worked overseas in countries where it is basically impossible for expatriates to own personal guns (e.g., China). In the New Year, however, I am relocating with my family to the San Francisco Bay Area. Hence, my conundrum.

Now that gun ownership will soon be a possibility for me, I'm trying to wrap my mind around a number of issues.

I realize that I will be moving to a gun-unfriendly city in gun-unfriendly state relative to most of the US. I also realize that my apparent ambivalence risks marking me as an "Anti Troll" among the many here who long ago made their decision in favor of firearms. I assure you, though, my inquiries are in the spirit of "introducing new people to responsible firearm ownership."

So, in no particular order:

1) Given the restrictions related to concealed carry and transportation in my soon to be home of California, I see no practical way to incorporate a handgun into my daily routine while in public unless I want to break the law. Is there something I missed? Commuting and while out with the family are the times I would most likely want to be armed.

2) I have two kids under age four. In the context of home defense, how do I balance firearm accessibility and readiness against the innate curiosity of the kids?

3) On a related note, where can I find good information about introducing children to the safe handling of firearms?

As background, I grew up (decades ago) in a very gun-friendly neighborhood, where I had limited opportunities with my friends to shoot small-bore rifles, shotguns and the odd handgun in a range / hunting context. My parents' home itself, though, was 100% gun free, so the application of firearms in a SD context is an unknown.

 

[hockeybum]

there are courses for SD, lots of things you can do (just that i can't remember any right now, busy with an essay), but just search for Home Defense or Concealed Carry and you will find plenty of information

 

[Javelin]

Very tough call. 100% gun free zone? WoW I cant imagine.

You can go to www.kimberamerica.com and look at the non-lethal electrical pistol by Kimber

www.life-act.com

 

[JoseM]

First, welcome.

1) Look here for your particular gun laws... http://www.handgunlaw.us/

2) I also have 2 boys under the age of 4. Right now I have a pistol loaded and ready to go (with the safety on). There is no way short of my oldest learning to fly for him to acquire the pistol. It's even difficult for my wife who is a bit shorter than me. However, with that said, I was looking at buying a gunvault www.Gunvault.com at the beginning of the year with my tax refund. The vaults supposedly are quickly accessed but can protect you curious little ones. On a side note, one of the best ways to kill curiosity is to teach your children about firearms...don't hide them so they are something mysterious. If they understand firearms and respect them, then you're on the right track. The age to start that is up to you. I haven't introduced my eldest to a firearm yet.

3)Dunno...I'm been raised with firearms and once my boys' old enough to understand some aspects of a firearm...I'm buying a nice pellet gun and going out back to train him. Once he follows all rules of firearm safety with a pellet gun, I'll take him to the range and teach him with a rimfire rifle (one shot at a time). When he satisfies me with this, he can graduate up to other firearms. Ultimately you're the best judge of your child's maturity level. But it's your job to teach him the fundamentals.

 

[Lbys]

Lots of options--keep an open mind

JT,

Good on you for considering this. Please keep an open mind, especially in light of the environment to which you're moving. As to your questions:

1) I don't know, as I'm not knowledgeable of CA gun laws. There are plenty of folks on THR who are, I imagine.

2) There are a ton of options here. If you're thinking a handgun ready at the bedside, this one seems to be favored by some:

http://www.gunvault.com/

There are some similar makes and models; bottom line, it keeps the kids out and can be secured to your bed or floor.

For long guns, etc., you have even more options (safe vs. RSC (Residential Security Cabinet), etc.). Again, lots of expertise and no shortage of opinions on THR.

3) I don't have kids, but the program a lot of folks mention is the NRA's Eddie Eagle program:

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

I'm sure there are others.

Good luck with your decision, and hopefully you can get the answers you need here. Another good place for self-protection info is pax's site:

http://www.corneredcat.com/

Most of her information is written from a woman's perspective, but most is equal to both genders. As a bonus, she's a Moderator Emeritus (I think) on THR, so she's around every now and again.

Lbys

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

I've always wanted to say this... Welcome to The High Road!

I would agree with you that carrying a pistol is not going to be possible in SF. CA issues CCWs by discretion of the County Sheriff, and in SF, that's a no-go.

Balancing firearm ownership and small children is something that will take some thought. There are safes available that aren't too outrageously priced... I'm sure a more knowledgeable member can give you specifics.

Whatever type of firearm you get, if you decide to get one, it would definitely be a good idea to make sure right away that your kids know it's off-limits. Educating them on it's use when they're older is a completely separate issue from the very basic, "Don't touch" type education, which is a priority.

I hope that you do decide to exercise your rights, and arm yourself, although only you know what's best for your circumstances. I might also suggest that, since carrying will, unfortunately, be impossible, it might be best to equip yourself with a shotgun. Shotguns are easier to use with little practice or training, and could be less problematic both now and in the future in SF.

In any case, good luck, and welcome back to the states, and to the High Road.

 

[AZ Husker]

Wouldn't a hunting shotgun be legal? Look at a Remington 870, probably the most devastating home defense weapon available loaded with 00 Buckshot!

 

[DogBonz]

Hi, and welcome to THR

The choice to go armed is not one to be taken lightly, and in posing your question, this is something that you already know. While you may not be able to carry on a daily basis in SF, or CA, having a firearm for home defense is something that you can do.

The first thing that I recommend, and I think that you will hear this a lot here, is to go to a range and take a safety and firearm operation course. This will teach you the basic safe handling and shooting techniques.

Next start shooting on a .22, weather it is a rifle or pistol, because the very low recoil (kick) will allow you to focus on the fundamentals of shooting, and remaining safe while firing.

For education for your children, the Eddie Eagle program run by the NRA is a very good start.

For keeping a firearm at home with children in the house, I recommend that you look into a bio-metric type safe. These allow only you or someone else that you allow in advance to access the firearm. They are very hard to get into for non-authorized individuals, but allow you access in only a second or two. There are many models that range in price and complexity. Some use a combination type lock, some use a finger print scanner.

Please ask any questions that you like. We try to keep an open flow of information here, and those who cannot discuss things like adults are removed from the discussion. There is a wealth of info here and we would love to help you.

-Fred

 

[Kr4kJ4k]

1) Many places in the US allow you to carry a handgun to protect your family but SanFran does not- unless you are rich, famous, or politically connected.
2) Firearms typically come with a free trigger lock. Also, many firearms now come with built in locks. Almost any gunsafe (prices start at less than $100) will keep a firearm away from young kids and many can be accessed quickly by key or combination. It's fairly easy to remove the bolt of many firearms to render them inoperable, and you can replace many bolts quickly and easily. In short, there are many many options, so you can decide which one or combination works best for you.
3) http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/infoparents.asp

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

DogBonz said:

The first thing that I recommend, and I think that you will hear this a lot here, is to go to a range and take a safety and firearm operation course. This will teach you the basic safe handling and shooting techniques.

+1. A little training and familiarization go a long way.

I'll also add that, before you decide to buy anything, shop around for something that not only fits your needs, but fits your hands and body type. This is particularly important for a pistol. You will shoot better, the better the gun fits your hand.

 

[HKUSP45C]

May I recommend www.corneredcat.com for some very enlightening discourse on kids and guns. The author of the site is a member here and one whom I admire greatly.

Also, while I'm not in any way qualified to give you advice I will suggest that the vast majority of what you read on this site and the one mentioned above will be worth your time.

I will edit to add that I think carrying your pistol on you while at home with the kids is the optimal solution. No safes, no locks and your home defense option is always at hand, more importantly it can't be in your kids hands if it's on your hip.

 

[stubbicatt]

Better to have and not to need than to need and not to have.

 

[bogie]

Hey, apply for a permit when you move in... Worse they can do is turn you down.

If you're carrying it, they can't play with it. Locked up, or on your belt.

 

[acdodd]

2) I also have 2 boys under the age of 4. Right now I have a pistol loaded and ready to go (with the safety on). There is no way short of my oldest learning to fly for him to acquire the pistol. It's even difficult for my wife who is a bit shorter than me. However, with that said, I was looking at buying a gunvault www.Gunvault.com at the beginning of the year with my tax refund.

Buy the gunvault!

You would be surprised how high a 4 year old can get.
Years ago when my son was 4 I found him on the top shelf of the closet. How he got there is still a mystery.
No gun was there thankfully.
Better safe than sorry.
AC

 

[LaEscopeta]

If you want to have a firearm and are willing to accept the responsibility for your self and your children, you should get a firearm. If you do not want to accept the possibility that having a firearm in your home or on you person may hurt/kill someone in an accident you should not get a firearm.

I have zipped up my anti-flame suit before I type this, but your safety and your family’s safety really doesn’t depend on you having a firearm or not. If you are a reasonable and informed intelligent person, you can quickly research the facts and determine the truth in the preceding sentence. And if you are reasonable, informed, and intelligent person living in the United States you have already done all the thing that really DO make you and your family safe (at least safer than the vast majority of people who have ever lived on this planet. Sometimes I think most American will never know what a great deal they were born into.)

And this site, with a little patience and search savvy, is a great source of info for all aspect of firearm ownership. The signal-to-noise ratio here is higher to anywhere else I have fond on the WWW. (Not that there is not SOME noise that you have to filter out.

Welcome to the High Road.

 

[Librarian]

Welcome back to the US. I could wish you were moving to the -real- USA, but as you've chosen California...

1) Given the restrictions related to concealed carry and transportation in my soon to be home of California, I see no practical way to incorporate a handgun into my daily routine while in public unless I want to break the law. Is there something I missed? Commuting and while out with the family are the times I would most likely want to be armed.

You've got this exactly right. No place in reasonable commuting distance of San Francisco - none of the bay area counties of San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Alameda, Contra Costa, and Marin - is officially gun friendly, nor are any of the cities renowned for reasonableness on the issue. Your chances of getting a concealed carry license in this area are almost, but not quite, zero.

I'd love to reassure you that, in common with most areas of the country, staying out of 'bad areas' would reduce your risk; that would be true, statistically, but bad areas sometimes find good people, and no one has perfect foreknowledge of what will happen.

California does have 'safe storage' 'laws; they are primarily aimed at keeping firearms out of the hands of children, so the Gunvault or similar locking container is a Very Good Idea.

Otherwise, gun ownership here is much like anywhere else, and the already-mentioned advice remains good.

 

[scurtis_34471]

Small children are not strong enough to rack the slide on a semi-auto pistol. Even my ten year-old cannot rack the slide on my XD-40. As long as there is no round in the chamber, you could hand a loaded service pistol to a two year old without fear of it being fired. This is not to say that you shouldn't take reasonable precautions to keep your gun out of the hands of small children, but it does mean that its less of an issue than the media makes out, AS LONG AS YOU ARE CAREFUL AND CHAMBER CHECK BEFORE STORING.

 

[MD_Willington]

I have 3 children, I let two them see my firearms, supervised of course, that is a good time to teach them about firearms.

After they've seen them a few times, the mystery is gone... They aren't interested in them...

Otherwise the firearms are out of sight, even the one I was carrying everyday was out of sight...

 

[JT1JTI]

Thanks for all the responses!

It looks like my likely choice for a public-carry SD tool in San Francisco will be some OC variant. For me, it seems like the best choice among what's available as well as legal. Not exactly thrilled about the choices.

One problem with the Bay Area (and many urban areas) is that "good areas" can adjoin "bad areas." E.g., the first subway stop east of San Francisco is West Oakland, where locals joke about the epidemic there of "sudden onset lead poisoning."

Thanks for the pointers on Gunvault. I assumed a product like that existed, but it's good to see the details and how I could incorporate it into my home. I intend to harden my home enough and to have a good enough alarm to gain (in theory) enough time to access a storage method such as Gunvault in case things get wonky.

I know I want my kids to learn to handle firearms safely, even if they decide not to use them for sporting or other purposes. Guns are just too ubiquitous in American society for me to think it's safer for them never to have touched them at all. And yes, I will only have guns in my house if everyone commits to regular training, education, etc. Thanks for the websites and other references; I will be spending some time at them.

 

[moooose102]

i DEFINITLY WOULD NOT BREAK THE LAW!!! TRY FOR THE PERMIT, IF THEY TURN YOU DOWN, DONT CARRY. YOU CAN NOT PROTECT YOUR FAMILY IF YOU ARE IN JAIL!!! DEFINITLY BUY A PISTOL AND A GUN VAULT (OR A WHAT THEY USED TO CALL A RIOT GUN, A SHORT SHORT PUMP ACTION 12 GAUGE AND A GUN SAFE TO DEFEND YOUR HOME WITH). SCREW IT TO YOUR BED, THE UNDERSIDE OF YOUR NIGHT STAND, OR SOME OTHER EASY, QUICK PLACE TO GET TO THE GUN IN AN EMERGENCY! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE KIDS, THEY WILL ADJUST TO THE GUN JUST FINE, AS LONG AS YOU INTRODUCE THEM TO IT CAREFULLY, AND WITH SAFETY AS PRIORITY #1 ! I HAVE TWO KIDS, ONE AGE 6, AND ONE AGE 4, I CARRY 24/7, THEY KNOW I DO, THEY ALSO KNOW NOT TO TOUCH. WHEN I DO LET THEM HANDLE MY FIREARMS, THE FORST THING WE DO IS CHECK TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE UNLOADED, MY SIX YEAR OLD KNOWS HOW TO DO THIS ON EVERY GUN I WON, ALL BY HIMSELF, AND DOES, EVERY TIME. DEFINATLY TAKE A HOME DEFENSE CLASS, IN SF, SO THE INSTRUCTOR IS UP ON ALL LOCAL LAWS, SO IF YOU HAVE TO USE IT, YOU WILL KNOW THE WHEN TO'S TO STAY OUT OF JAIL. GOOD LUCK ON THE MOVE TO SF, I CAN'T IMAGINE MOVING TO A PLACE WHERE IT IS THAT ANTI-GUN! P.S. A GOOD DOG IS ABOUT THE BEST ALARM SYSTEM YOU CAN GET! AND IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE A BIG ONE, ALL YOU WANT HIM/HER TO DO IS WARN YOU TO AN INTRUDER, NOT ATTACK!

 

[PennsyPlinker]

Welcome back to the US. I could wish you were moving to the -real- USA, but as you've chosen California...

My first thought was that the laws in SF probably aren't much different than those in China!

 

[PobreBrusco]

It's been mentioned already, but as an owner of a GunVault (www.gunvault.com), I highly recommend it. I've got kids and they've got friends, and I absolutely believe that an unsecured gun in that environment (no matter how much I educate my kids) presents more of a risk of personal harm than being "gun free and undefended" would. The GunVault is the best compromise I could find. I can literally open it in seconds, but it completely negates the risk of curious kids.

In addition to having ready access to the gun, it also has the advantage of being so easy to use that I'm never tempted to leave a gun out instead of putting it away properly.

The pistol models are of decent quality and work well. I saw a larger, long gun model in a store and thought it looked like crap though. The pistol models were all under $200 at the time I bought one (about a year ago).

 

[RKBABob]

For carrying out of the house, if you're not connected enough to get a permit:
1. Plain old pepper spray. I've heard praises for the FOX Labs brand here.
2. Kimber has two non lethal tools... basically pepper spray in a fancy applicator.
3. The new Taser C2, if you have $300 or so lying around.

As for keeping a firearm in the house... get a quick access safe. Your kids WILL find it if you just put it on a high shelf. Many will tell you that education is key, but I say locking it up is even better. There are lock boxes available that use a key, a keypad code, or even ones that read your fingerprint.

Keep your kids safe, and the gun out of their hands untill they are old enough and educated enough to be trusted... then supervise them. You won't regret having a gun in the house, but you will regret NOT having one if you ever need it.


There is a lot of great info about kids and guns here: http://corneredcat.com/
The site was put together by a member of this forum, BTW.

 

[nplant]

JT1JTI -

I live in Santa Clara county, just south of San Francisco (actually, two counties south). I have several friends and colleagues that live in SF, and you're right - it's VERY gun-unfriendly.

To start out, you should order a copy of the book How to Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail - California Edition by John Machtinger. It's an invaluable resource for the California gun-owner. This book will decode the thousands of lines of gun regulations that we need to maneuver in order to remain "law abiding" and it's truly, truly worth the $20. This book can help you decide if firearms ownership is worth it to you for the length of your stay in our state.

Secondly, there are still lots of places to shoot in the SF Bay Area, but none that I'm aware of within the city of SF itself. Google is your friend on this score - there are a few websites out there that detail places to shoot in the SF Bay Area. There are also great training opportunities for private citizens, but you have to seek them out - there's not a great deal of advertising for this.

To your questions:
1) If you live in SF, and don't personally know the mayor, and he doesn't personally owe you some big political favor, you can frankly forget about obtaining a CCW. Other places in California are much easier, but SF has the single lowest rate of issue, period. Per capita, it's almost non-existent.

2) Again, Machtinger's book will give you state law regarding kids and guns, but morally and ethically, you're required to make sure nobody you don't specifically authorize can get a hold of your guns. Personally, whether it's kids in the house or guests, I go to sleep with my gun in a bedside holster, and lock my bedroom door, so as to slow down anyone trying to get in, giving me some warning. You are also legally allowed to wear a gun while in your own home, so you could keep a pistol on you at all times. This could be a good way to introduce your kids to guns, as well - set the example that they are not toys.

3) The NRA offers kids programs and literature including the rules of firearms safety for kids (stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell a responsible adult). Some of the literature is free, some is reasonably priced. You could also get your kids some instruction when they become old enough to understand the responsibility involved (this age is as individual as we humans).

If you're interested, I'd be happy to meet up with you when you get here, and we can go shooting if you'd want to get familiar with guns yourself before introducing them to your family. My only request is that if you plan to live here for any real length of time, and you are in a position to do so, that you register to vote, and do so in every election - one of the big problems with California is that most gun owners are not registered voters.

Welcome to California and the High Road.

-Nathan

 

[JoseM]

moooose102....LAY OFF THE CAPS! It's considered YELLING! And most people don't read it when you YELL AT THEM. It gives me a headache as well