On the issue of "tail gunners"...

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Fred Fuller

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http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2014/06/29/three-weeks-later/

THREE WEEKS LATER…
Sunday, June 29th, 2014
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This is an aspect of situational awareness which presents significant challenges, given the reflexive tendency toward 'tunnel vision' in an emergency. Trainers on the firing line today are always harping at students to 'cover down' ... but how deeply is that lesson implanted? Can it overcome reflex, or human nature?

A long time ago I came across what has become my favorite evaluation of human nature versus training. It came from a former Army shrink, sadly now deceased, and went like this: Human nature is to go to the bathroom in your pants.* Well, most of us were potty trained by age three or so, and still remain reliably continent save perhaps under genuinely extreme and exigent circumstances. And we get to practice remaining continent every day, while extreme situational awareness is seldom if ever demanded of us in daily life. After all, how often while you are standing in a checkout line does some stranger nearby in the store produce a pistol and fire a shot into the ceiling?

There are a lot of things to think about, and hopefully to resolve individually, in the process of going armed. This is but one of them. Here's an opportunity to see what others think about it (there are over 100 comments at the link to Mas' article), and to share your own opinion or decision, if you have made one already in this matter.

* http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/2009/01/stages-of-faith.html
 
It is not for us to judge whether Wilcox should have intervened. That was a personal decision, and it was his alone to make.

But an informed decision maker in his position should take into account the high likelihood that he will be up against at least two perps and respond accordingly.

Mote that the old adage about common thugs being cowards who will run at the first sound of shots did not prove to be true here.
 
I don't know how one defines common thugs. Training I had that dates back to the mid 80s breaks violent actors down into 3 categories; criminals, crusaders and crazies. Criminals were those who may be involved in violent acts for profit or other gain. Crusaders were those who were committing violent acts to further a political cause and crazies were those who just went off their balance and committed violent acts, like most of the mass shooters we have seen in the last several years. Organized response to actors in each of these groups can be different as they will act differently based on their motivations.

While it's handy for people who plan organized responses to violent incidents to be able to categorize the violent actors into groups, it's nearly impossible for the armed citizen or the patrol officer to immediately know what group the violent actor he is dealing with fits in.

Many situations won't allow you the time to contemplate all of the possibilities. Often things happen so fast that you just have to act based on the information you had on hand at the time.

I'm not in any position to judge Wilcox's actions. I wasn't there, I don't know what he saw or what he thought he knew about the situation. It could have been "tunnel vision". Unfortunately we will never get a good after action report as everyone involved is dead.

I am a firm believer that a private citizen has very little reason to "run to the sound of the guns". The big reason is that you don't know what you are dealing with. When I worked the street I responded to plenty of situations that were not at all what they were dispatched. I don't have to do that anymore. And most importantly as a private citizen I don't have the support systems and backup that I had when working.
 
An armed citizen getting involved in a gunfight as a third party just has so many ways to go wrong. What Mr Wilcox did was admirable, but it illustrates just one of many variables that an outsider to the situation just doesn't have a grip on when deciding to commit to action.
 
"This is an aspect of situational awareness which presents significant challenges, given the reflexive tendency toward 'tunnel vision' in an emergency. Trainers on the firing line today are always harping at students to 'cover down' ... but how deeply is that lesson implanted? Can it overcome reflex, or human nature?"

I think you can get better results understanding the dynamics of tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and such in a well ran FOF class versus a square range class. I know I've learned from my mistakes and others mistakes when being the third party in scenarios. I've also been in a scenario where there was a unknown tail gunner present. Well over half of the students (all with at least a few firearm classes under their belts) did not pick up on it and were getting shot from behind before they had any clue someone was coming up behind them. Fortunately I recognized the second threat early enough in this scenario but it stuck home with me a lot more versus scanning after a string of fire in a firearm class.

While I still value a firearm class it doesn't even come close to the top of my priority list in training any longer when comparing it to FOF classes.
 
I doubt any of us would have noticed the woman who killed Mr. WILCOX. He was a Sheepdog doing his best to defend others. This case does give you something to think about.
 
Deltaboy said:
I doubt any of us would have noticed the woman...
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I was thinking the same thing. "Female" doesn't come to mind when I think "thug".
 
In the CWP classes I teach and in the ones I help teach with a couple of friends, during the shoot-don't shoot portion, we emphasize that we don't get to choose what our attacker looks like. We also teach that there is usually more than one bad guy, or girl.
 
An interesting parallel was seen on two threads over at www.glocktalk.com. In the “Carry Issues” section, quite a few people thought Wilcox had overstepped his bounds. They took the position that the gun they carried was only to protect themselves and their families, not the public.
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Yeah, well it's GlockTalk, ya'know.:rolleyes:
 
It seems that the ill defined move to 'confront' was the major problem.
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I'd be a little careful to not appear to be knocking the deceased - as the local police chief has stated, he thinks the citizen saved an untold number of other lives.

I was listening to Tom Gresham's podcast today - Ayoob was on, and was giving details on the case:
1. The husband / wife duo were wearing adult diapers, so they surmise they were in it for the long haul.
2. When they got in the store, they headed for the ammo case.

It's a shame the citizen died, and we can study his tactics, but some folks are coming down a bit hard on him.

If I'm not mistaken, did the couple not tell shoppers to leave the store?
If so:
1. Were they going to shoot shoppers, or since they had already targeted two cops, were they planning on killing more cops (only) as their plan unfolded?
2. If so, then the deceased CCW holder may well have saved some cops lives.
3. With what (we think) we now know, I wonder if there might have been more folks involved, but when the plan went south (due to the deceased CCW holder), did they melt into the crowd and just fade away?
 
Although most of this is pure speculation - this kind of examination after the fact is useful...

Any armed confrontation is filled with danger and unanticipated elements. That's why I'll always advocate that tactics are probably the most important element in any confrontation. After you learn the basics of shooting, safety, and accuracy - then it's all tactics and even good, well thought out tactics (if that's possible when you're so wound up emotionally that you may not have dry pants....) may not save you once you commit to act...

If my son were my audience (when he listens to me at all....) I'd say never show you're armed until the moment you choose to intervene - and always look for that second shooter or that second weapon after you've acted. The human animal really is the most dangerous game (at any age, any sex, in any situation...). Most of what we've all seen in popular entertainment is a very poor preparation for that once in a lifetime shooting situation...

I came to the above opinion the hard way.... I only fired one shot in 22 years as a cop. During those 22 years though, we lost three cops a year on the street (combining Dade and Broward counties - Miami and Ft. Lauderdale) year in and year out every year that I was in police work. Every one of them were just doing their jobs (and I'm not counting suicide or angry girlfriends, wives, or just plain bad habits). Most were killed because of bad tactics in a given situation - but not all... In some cases they never saw or had any time to react to an armed assault. Most might have survived with different tactics... that's the lesson I learned over time. In at least two or three instances a single individual killed more than one cop in an incident... Quite a few of the fallen were killed with their own weapons....

After the fact, every local police training unit (remember that during my years there were at least 27 different police departments in Dade county alone....) tried to learn from the incident and train to improve. Over time most agencies learned to operate much more safely but we still continued to lose officers... Any armed confronation is a crap shoot in my opinion....
 
Posted by lemaymiami: I'd say never show you're armed until the moment you choose to intervene - and always look for that second shooter or that second weapon after you've acted. ......
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Might "after" not prove to be too late?

Most of what we've all seen in popular entertainment is a very poor preparation for that once in a lifetime shooting situation...
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Words of wisdom.

The Good Guy always sees everything timely , as does the audience.

Things unfold with measured speed...so the audience can follow the action.

The Good Guy never misses...

...and his shots are effective....

...and he is never ambushed by a tail gunner.
 
That's why FOF is an eye-opener for those who think it is easy.

I was 'shot' by one tail gunner but managed to 'shoot' another.

A related take away point. After a simulated robbery, one bystander ran out the door. He then stopped to watch - the 'crook' ran out, saw him and 'shot' him. I learned that if I get away, I head for the horizon.
 
GEM - " ... After a simulated robbery, one bystander ran out the door. He then stopped to watch - the 'crook' ran out, saw him and 'shot' him. I learned that if I get away, I head for the horizon."
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Yessiree!

As that old saying goes, "Feets, don't fail me now!" :uhoh:

L.W.
 
I won't criticize the armed citizen: I think he's a hero and that he saved lives.

For my part, I have a few take-aways from the incident:
  • Intervening is a high-risk endeavor. I could be killed by a tailgunner, by another armed citizen, by an off-duty LEO, or by a first responder.
  • I will not intervene in a fight between adults that I don't know. Only a mass murderer or someone about to seriously harm a child will be considered.
  • Even if it's justified, intervening may not be possible. If the bad guys have suicide vests, lots of body armor, etc., it may be a useless gesture for me to step in.
  • I plan to keep my gun hidden and focus on moving to cover and/or concealment, if possible, before drawing. I'd rather ambush a bad guy than confront him.
  • I need more practice and more training.

Respectfully submitted,
Dirty Bob
 
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Well said -particularly the ambush part. John Wayne is dead -and anyone confronting an armed subject out in the open is likely to join him....
We tried to drill working behind cover to our officers as a basic component of officer survival. At times circumstances will have you out in the open but good basic tactics try to avoid doing things that could get you killed. Any armed citizen needs to remember that the good guys don't always win...
 
This really hammers home the need to genuinely reflect upon why you're carrying that gun. If it to be a hero or truly for self protection only? On whose behalf would you intervene, and under what circumstances? I am of the mind that Mr. Wilcox was a true, dyed-in-the-wool hero. But that doesn't make his actions wise. Just being "on the side of the angels" doesn't guarantee your survival.

It's extremely difficult to handle a situation with an active shooter. Often there is just one, but it's also not at all uncommon for there to be more than one. If the 'tail gunner' is smart and cool, and if the attack has been well planned in advance, the CCW trying to intervene is at an incredible disadvantage. You really won't know until you see a weapon and by then it might be too late.
 
I'd be a little careful to not appear to be knocking the deceased - as the local police chief has stated, he thinks the citizen saved an untold number of other lives.
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What he should have said is that Wilcox may have saved officer's lives. The perps were not out to shoot non-government civilians. Otherwise, they would have shot up the people in Cici's where they killed the cops. They would have shot up people between Cicic's and Walmart. They would have not fired a shot into the ceiling and ordered everyone out, but would have instead just started killing people. To put in JW's terminology, these were crusaders. These two wanted a battle with the cops who represent the government.

I was thinking the same thing. "Female" doesn't come to mind when I think "thug".
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Maybe so, but those days are gone and that is thinking that should change. We have had the (mis)fortune of being given hints over the decades from several bad-girl types and we tend to stay stuck in our stereotypical ways. Several have been in teams...

Bonnie and Clyde Barrow
Caril Fugate and Charles Starkweather
Alton Coleman and Debra Brown
Ray & Faye Copeland
Frances Creighton and Everett Appelgate
Fred and Rose West
Judith and Alvin Neelley
Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez
Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka
William Holbert and Laura Reese
Ricky Davis and Dena Riley
Myra Hindley and Ian Brady
Debra Brown with Alton Coleman

A few (of many) individuals...
Patti Hearst
Jennifer San Marco
Aileen Wuornos
Amy Bishop
Sylvia Seegrist
Brenda Spencer

And these are just some of the more famous ones. There are a lot more gang females and just generally violent women, or if not violent, then certainly dangerous. They don't seem to get the news-play men get and are often overlooked as oddities when committing terrible acts, but they are out there, maybe not the majority, but should certainly never be overlooked.
 
"Nobody knows anybody. Not that well."

- Tom Reagan (Gabriel Byrne), Miller's Crossing
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Take a look at some of the early pics of the Manson "family." A bunch of very innocent-looking young men and women...who went on to brutally murder a number of people. One -- Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme -- tried to murder President Ford. BTW, another attempt on Pres. Ford was perpetrated by a woman: Sara Jane Moore. Unlike Squeaky, she managed to fire her handgun.

I've known one person who'd almost certainly be diagnosed as a psychopath. She was tiny and had one of those "little girl" voices. She's currently on the run, outside the US. Her crimes include kidnapping, assault, theft, identity theft, extortion, bribery of public officials, making false statements, and probably much more. Those of us who know them are surprised that she didn't murder her (now ex-) husband along the way. Someone meeting her for the first time might think she was attractive. I see her more as a lizard with nice hair (to quote Sam Kinison).

It's true that men commit the lion's share of murders, but Double Naught Spy's amazing post reminds us that Tom Reagan (a creation of the Coen Brothers) was right.

All my best,
Dirty Bob
 
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As far as my personal experience goes... the only times I was ever injured in police work... you guessed it - a female was the bad actor. I never encountered one with a firearm thank heavens - but plenty armed with knives and very bad intentions.
 
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