On the issue of "tail gunners"...

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I think it is prudent to assume that there is more than one dangerous criminal present when a violent crime occurs.

I do not think it wise to automatically assume that a female is not a violent criminal.

Also, as Dirty Bob pointed out, one's risks are not limited to those presented by tail gunners. Neither the intervening citizen or a defender can assume that his virtual white hat is visible to all.
 
I think it is prudent to assume that there is more than one dangerous criminal present when a violent crime occurs.

I do not think it wise to automatically assume that a female is not a violent criminal.

Also, as Dirty Bob pointed out, one's risks are not limited to those presented by tail gunners. Neither the intervening citizen or a defender can assume that his virtual white hat is visible to all.
Wise words we have way more Belle Stars these days .
 
First, I think that Massad Ayoob took away from what he was saying by tying the article to the Las Vegas shooting because everyone seems to be fixated on whether or not that guy should have intervened at all.

Second, I wonder if this indicates that the criminals are evolving their tactics because they know more people are carrying
 
Second, I wonder if this indicates that the criminals are evolving their tactics because they know more people are carrying.

I don't think you can draw many conclusions on how criminals might act based on the Las Vegas incident. The Las Vegas killers were "crusaders" revolutionaries attempting to change society by force. Their actions were planned much differently then a street thug looking to do an armed robbery would.
 
Yeah, not a typical situation. Most of us that CCW are concerned more with robberies and assaults. Still it's a good idea to to keep our minds open and try to keep our SA high and attuned to other kinds of threats. I know that I think a lot more about the possibility of a 2nd or even a 3rd unseen gunman after analyzing this incident.
 
I appreciate the Chief's accolade to Mr. Wilcox, but that is a gesture for his family and has no bearing on how the situation would have resulted from two shooters holed up in a grid of display fixtures.

Locating the shooting lanes shouldn't be choosing who are the goats and having them walk out in the open to discover it. And that is exactly how first responders are taught not to handle the situation. You don't go blindly into a free fire zone.

Implying that many other officers would have gotten shot and killed is either a testament to the inadequate training the Chief is directly responsible for, or admitting there is no better solution, the Chinese in Korea were right, just send waves of humans in, and their defeat will happen eventually.

I don't see young men wanting to become cops with that kind of leadership. It's not happening that way, anyway, which is exactly why the comment is just salve for the wound of losing Mr. Wilcox.

That he responded at all is exactly where our focus remains. It was pointed out that we tend to respond to our initial training. In that regard, most don't keep a good situational awareness any longer than to negotiate the immediate item of concern. And they react in the way they were trained, NOT in the way they should.

Case in point, we have a new roundabout being installed at a major intersection. The rules are simple, yield to traffic on the left, enter the flow and then exit where you need to.

Unfortunately, it's counterintuitive to most driver's experience, and once in the flow, they slow or even stop to yield to traffic on their right, just the same as any other intersection. And that creates an immediate if not dangerous backup in the flow.

What is being forgotten in the tunnel vision of looking out for obstacles forward is the rule Don't Be In The Way. And that is exactly how people are elevating their risk of being hit from behind.

Lots of practices and habits we acquire negatively impact how we should react to a situation Mr Wilcox perceived. One is that when someone starts waving a gun around and shooting the ceiling, shouting that people should flee, that we need to confront. The normal influence testosterone has on males makes it even worse -as the Open Carry confrontation in Georgia attests. Nobody has the right to confront another and question them over their behavior if they are not immediately subject to lethal force.

Another ingrained response is society's demand that "somebody needs to do something," which, at it's extreme, is exactly the anti gunners reasoning. No, you often DON'T have to do something. It's actually not our place to police the forums, or at work, or even a customers purchasing decision. If somebody is doing something wrong, it very well may not be your place to even acknowledge it. No harm, no foul. You are not responsible for the actions of others, you are only responsible for what you do.

That runs counter to the "grain" of American male society, and viewing Mr. Wilcox's sacrifice in that light will reveal a lot of ways that we make bad decisions with even worse results.

If you disagree, well, how bout you start listening to the sage advice of your superiors? Oh, my, it does cut both ways. If you or I can instruct or even command others in our presence, then consider carefully that the other 50% of the time, you need to accept the directive of others, too. You reap what you sow. "Obey my commands!" implies that others can tell YOU to obey THEIRS. And if you don't have their advanced level of training - and how do you even know? - then you are the one making a mistake.

Didn't see that coming? Well, in the case of the shooters, the male understood very well that he had the upper hand and his partner was capable of enforcing his will. Had Mr. Wilcox complied and simply exited, again, no harm no foul. But, no, he stopped and attempted to enforce HIS will, with bad results. In that process he jammed up the exit lanes for other patrons, who then had to reverse direction against the outflow of foot traffic and flee in another direction. Mr. Wilcox did create a "collision" in an exit lane and blocked people from safety.

With people fleeing around them heading for the doors, I can't see it's a safely conducted shooting lane with no one crossing over or behind the male shooter - or Mr. Wilcox. Again, we get tunnel vision and never consider that bullets that miss US may hit others behind us. Reading the first reports, I wondered why the female shooter thought she wouldn't hit her partner. The angle must have been more oblique.

Those are things you don't get just shooting at a square range. Nobody is shooting back, and you have a weapon than cannot deviate from downrange by much or you get called out. You can't pivot, check behind you, or even completely reverse, which can and will be demanded if you detect a tailgunner. Nope, you need a 360 degree range to fully practice tactics.

In other words, plinking at the local range isn't doing you much good. It just tightens up your groups in a fairly relaxed setting, not under pressure or with the actual possibility that you could be shot from behind. If it's not a 360 degree range with two way fire, it's not what you would need to learn when actually on the streets. And if that is the case, then quietly accepting instructions and walking out the exit is the better course of action.

Yes, that chafes. The average red blooded American male will resist that advice, but the reality is that unless you have gone thru the training, got the t-shirt, and understand how easy it is to be killed in that situation, then you might be running blindly into a trap, crossfire, or even volunteering to add to the body count that some crazy may be accumulating.
 
Jeff White said:
I don't think you can draw many conclusions on how criminals might act based on the Las Vegas incident. The Las Vegas killers were "crusaders" revolutionaries attempting to change society by force. Their actions were planned much differently then a street thug looking to do an armed robbery would.

I think this exemplifies my first point; we’re focusing on Las Vegas instead of the larger issue.

In the thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9553000 three people mentioned simple robberies in which there was an “undercover” accomplice.
 
And that brings up a salient point. At the time of the incident, there may be little or no comprehension of why what is going down is going down. There is a threat. The question is whether or not you (as a person there) are in a position to know the extent of the threat or not. That threat may be revolutionaries, robbers, escaped criminals, or some other type of bad person, but it really doesn't matter. The fact remains that bad guys often operate in numbers more than one and the one or ones you don't see still may be a threat to you.
 
Posted by Tirod: It was pointed out that we tend to respond to our initial training. In that regard, most don't keep a good situational awareness any longer than to negotiate the immediate item of concern. And they react in the way they were trained, NOT in the way they should.

...

What is being forgotten in the tunnel vision of looking out for obstacles forward [referring to a traffic circle] is the rule Don't Be In The Way. And that is exactly how people are elevating their risk of being hit from behind.

Lots of practices and habits we acquire negatively impact how we should react to a situation Mr Wilcox perceived. ...
....

Those are things you don't get just shooting at a square range. Nobody is shooting back, and you have a weapon than cannot deviate from downrange by much or you get called out. You can't pivot, check behind you, or even completely reverse, which can and will be demanded if you detect a tailgunner. Nope, you need a 360 degree range to fully practice tactics.

In other words, plinking at the local range isn't doing you much good. It just tightens up your groups in a fairly relaxed setting, not under pressure or with the actual possibility that you could be shot from behind. If it's not a 360 degree range with two way fire, it's not what you would need to learn when actually on the streets.

Excellent input, and highly applicable to the thread on training started by Tom Givens.

Of course, not many people can or will avail themselves of FoF training with simunitions to provide 360 degrees and two way fire.

But--the limitations of square range practice are obvious. I'll go a step further and opine that such practice can result in ingrained habits that could prove fatal.

There are alternatives. Read Counter Ambush by Rob Pincus. If you can find a safe three-sided berm where drawing from the holster is permitted, you have a real advantage.

Posted by Double Naught Spy: There is a threat. The question is whether or not you (as a person there) are in a position to know the extent of the threat or not. That threat may be revolutionaries, robbers, escaped criminals, or some other type of bad person, but it really doesn't matter. The fact remains that bad guys often operate in numbers more than one and the one or ones you don't see still may be a threat to you.
In my view, that is the takeaway point of this entire conversation.
 
Guess I'm an "average Joe" when it comes to such things. I've been carrying on the Texas CHL for many years, and have had several occasions where it was possible that I might have to draw.

I can remember each incident in amazing detail, and I remember that I never, not once, checked my 360 before concentrating on the initial threat.

My latest was an aggressive panhandler in a gas station parking lot, and yep, concentrated on him, not even considering he could have had an accomplice sneaking up on my 180.

I'm going to have to work on that.
 
Great info! I want to specifically thank Tirod for a pretty detailed explanation of his views. A lot to digest.

I'm reminded of a great article called my gunfight. It explains how many/most of us have this movie playing in our mind of how our own gunfight would unfold; the problem is it almost certainly won't happen the way we think. Most of the time we expect reality to conform to our expectations- we think we'll have plenty of time to draw, we'll square up against the BG and assume a perfect range stance, etc.

HoF Viking's wide receiver Chris Carter had some of the softest hands I've ever seen. In a really interesting interview I read with him he said he spent very little time practicing that part of the game. He was just naturally good at that so he spent 75% of his time working on the 10% of stuff he wasn't as good at. I found that telling. Just by human nature we don't like to get outside of our comfort zones. If we're pretty strong in the upper body but weak in the legs many of us will focus on bench press because we find it easier. The reality is that we need to focus on the things that we don't know so well and maybe aren't good at.

In a CCW context that might mean the law, or tactics. It's fun to put lead downrange, but you're already a good shot maybe you need to focus on your draw. Or weapon manipulations/malfunction drills. Or tactics.

I think a lot about Mr. Wilcox, I really do. Maybe he did save some lives, and undoubtedly what he did was noble and brave. But obviously he was not trained to do what he did and made some fatal mistakes. We will never know what might have happened if he had simply walked out with the rest of the customers. Or even if he'd have hidden and waited for a more opportune time.

A trainer I subscribe to talks about how we really really should "Monday morning QB" a situation in the sense of analyzing what went wrong. Maybe Mr. Wilcox saves some lives that day, but he will almost certainly save some lives if those of us that CCW take the time to dissect the incident and train to prevent falling into the same trap in the future.
 
This has been a very good read and it has made me think about what all I do when training.

One thing that has helped me even before I carried a firearm for SD was/is Airsoft. Granted some of it is not totally transferable to real life nor is it the end all, be all way to train. Some of the things it did reinforce is checking your six and the importance of cover. (Granted everyone out there is running around with a gun and can be shot, but you still have to check if they are friend or foe.)
 
In the early '60's we had gas thieves in our rural area.The son of a neighboring farmer came home one night and found some one at the farm gas tank.The person ran and the son told his father.The father got his shotgun and flashlight and went to a large shed at the end of the driveway.Later, a car with lights off parked nearby.He waited a while and stood behind a door and turned the flashlight on the tank.A man was on the tank.A second person fired a shotgun and shot the flashlight out of his hand.The door took most of the load.They fled and he had pellets removed from his hand.It could have been much worse.
 
In screen fiction, the "good guy" knows where all the perps are, and so does the audience.

This, along with the apparent psychological propensity of the armed citizen to don the virtual mantle of the proverbial good guy when he draws his gun, are what I believe leads to unrealistic expectations and imprudent behavior when a threat appears.
 
Just came across this post (obviously) and the shopping part of Mr Wilcox's demise, my reaction, without a shadow of a doubt, exit with my Wife.
Glock19 in holster.

The mention of the 74 year old who was dragged to the ground by the young person, to steal her purse.
He and his friend were leaving the store (same exit/entrance as my local, very clean and nice Publix.)

Note, they had purchased nothing! No bags in hand. Two together, maybe a third person, exiting with them.

They most likely would have been cruising the store, not confronted, not noticed, because no person was a designated watcher, none.

I was involved with the other spectrum, two such individuals, were following my Wife, around our local Publix (this was two years ago, that same store was robbed two months ago by three black youths, two with guns, at closing time)
most likely random.

Week day (retired people can shop anytime) my Wife in Store, me reading a library book in parking lot, awaiting the "I am coming out" call! in Jeep, marked Security vehicle, my Sons Company.

Cell phone call from my Wife. "I am being followed around by two black young men, pants hanging down ones, they have no basket, or cart" there is no store security, response time for OCSO? No chance.

I asked her to call when at check out, I would be under the over hang, standing behind the Jeep. Ten yards from auto doors.

My instructions, walk normally to right side exit auto door, then speed up a little, keep to right wall, were they park extra carts. Just keep moving, don't stop.

Ring/Ring, "at Check out". The two were 7m behind my Wife, focused on her, the one on my right saw me! I was focused on them! Their hands were empty, they made no move to waist, or pockets, person on right, grabbed his Buddy's arm, they took off at a dead run, across parking lot, to street.

Prior to my call from Wife, I took note of vehicles close to entrance, looking for getaway vehicle! And driver! None. They had a Lady with a vehicle in front of them!

Talked to Store Manager, "Yes, I noticed them" "But they had done nothing wrong!" So he did nothing, told no one.

Thank goodness my Wife (from the West Indies) had been married to me for twenty years!
 
Old Guy, that's an interesting story. Scary.

It reaffirms the concern that there may well be more than one of 'em.

It points out the extreme importance of awareness. It's amazing how many people I see trying to graft a cell phone to their ear while they shop.

It points out one thing to be wary about: "shoppers" who aren't shopping. I recently read that the tail gunner may be pushing a cart around while watching everyone else rather than looking at the stuff on the shelves.

Looking for a getaway vehicle is a smart practice. Since I learned that, I have detected two.

I generally go in with my wife, but that's because it has been too hot to sit in the car.
 
Old Guy, that's an interesting story. Scary.

It reaffirms the concern that there may well be more than one of 'em.

It points out the extreme importance of awareness. It's amazing how many people I see trying to graft a cell phone to their ear while they shop.

It points out one thing to be wary about: "shoppers" who aren't shopping. I recently read that the tail gunner may be pushing a cart around while watching everyone else rather than looking at the stuff on the shelves.

Looking for a getaway vehicle is a smart practice. Since I learned that, I have detected two.

I generally go in with my wife, but that's because it has been too hot to sit in the car

My little boy has given me a Gas Card!
Well he is 6'3', so I sit and run the A/C, but yes sometimes I go with her.

The things you see, when you look. Watching your 6 is good as well, but the people who do not fit in, lots of them.

I have a Buddy who works sometimes in the Toronto Airport (Pearson International) He is a Cop out of Peel Region.

He said the average Canadian, never lift their eyes off the ground!

I worked for 16 years with the El Al guys, and Consulate Staff. I rented them my range, once a month.

Some of the drills were not (even close!) to being Politically correct.

Like draw, rack slide (not anymore have 9mm Glock's, one in the pipe) and fire 3 rounds at 15m, cardboard target, leg it down range, shoot 4" balloon, taped to deck. No one walks away.
 
For the retired LEO (like myself), you have to remember, among other things, that you are no longer indemnified. So, any hint of a bad shooting could cost you not only your liberty, but your financial well being.

Anybody who worked in NYC has probably heard of the Det. Capers shooting. He walked into an armed robbery in a shoe store in Queens. Had the robber at gun point. Unfortunately, he was in civilian clothing, and while it was never mentioned as a reason, he was black. First officer to arrive on the scene shot him in the back. His official reason was Capers was holding a chrome plated gun, which he said didn't look official. At the time, there was no prohibition on chrome guns, many in the dept. had them. After the shooting, they were prohibited.
 
For the retired LEO (like myself), you have to remember, among other things, that you are no longer indemnified. So, any hint of a bad shooting could cost you not only your liberty, but your financial well being.

Anybody who worked in NYC has probably heard of the Det. Capers shooting. He walked into an armed robbery in a shoe store in Queens. Had the robber at gun point. Unfortunately, he was in civilian clothing, and while it was never mentioned as a reason, he was black. First officer to arrive on the scene shot him in the back. His official reason was Capers was holding a chrome plated gun, which he said didn't look official. At the time, there was no prohibition on chrome guns, many in the dept. had them. After the shooting, they were prohibited.
On a visit to City Island Range, as a Canadian Civilian (own School for Police and Security) I was treated really well by the Staff there.

This incident was discussed, one of the suggestions was badge worn on chain around neck, normally not visible, flipped over shoulder, to be seen from behind, was that ever done?
 
Hope you stopped on City Island for some good Seafood. ; >)

Capers happened before I was working. We were told in a situation like that to hold our shield in the non gun hand up in the air.

The responding officer, according to proper training, should have challenged the person holding the gun, but from behind cover. We were taught to use a standard response to the challenge, and do exactly as the officer behind us ordered. No arguing, no turning around with a gun in your hand. If told to drop your weapon, drop your weapon. We were told forget that beautiful pristine gun you're holding and drop it, don't try to place it down gently. That kept me from buying that Colt Diamondback I always wanted. That and the price. lol The idea of a bad guy behind you pretending always entered my mind.

NYPD now uses a "color of the day", so even undercover officers wear some chosen color for that day that might identify them to another member of the force without a shield.
 
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