Once again, I'd like to get into 10mm...

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Nightcrawler

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Every so often I get the idea in my head that I want a 10mm. Now, I'm quite happy with my two .45s and my .45 Colt S&W. I'm quite fond of both the .45 Colt and the .45ACP cartridges.

However, I find 10mm interesting. In the better loads it's like a hot-loaded .357 Magnum, but with a bigger bore and heavier bullets. That's not bad.

Here's the problem. Nobody makes a 10mm pistol that I want. The only current production 10mm that I can really imagine buying is the S&W 610 revolver. (Though, if I'm going to get an N-Frame revolver, I'd be sorely tempted to make it another .45 Colt, or a .44 Magnum....)

So here's the thing about the other 10mm guns currently available:

-Glock 20: It's a Glock. It's clunky, it doesn't fit my hand, it's ugly, it's plastic. I'm sure it works well enough, I just don't like it. I mean, how are you going to put nice grips on that??

-EAA Witness: Fine if you get one that works, but if you don't, EAA will reportedly just as soon tell you to go jump in a lake as they would fix your gun. And, I've read on here that the Witness isn't really strong enough for a lifetime of 10mm usage.

-Dan Wesson Razorback: I really dislike M1911 types with front slide serrations, extended safeties, etc. The current production RZ-10 seems to be set up as a match pistol in any case.

-Kimber 10mm: Same deal. Front serrations, and all of that.



You know what I'd want? A CZ-97B in 10mm. Not a Witness, a real CZ. I've put .45 Super through my CZ-97 without any trouble; it's a tough, beefy, all-steel gun. I'd also like a M1911-type in 10mm, but without the goofy front serrations, beavertail, and all that. The beavertail and commander hammer can be replaced with parts that are more to my liking, but you're prettymuch stuck with front serrations if you've got them. I like Sean Smith's custom Delta Elite; he even put a regular hammer on it. Something like that would be nice.

I could go for a S&W 1006, too, I suppose, but I've never seen one.

*shrug* Probably just stick with what I've got. My next handgun will almost certainly be a revolver anyways. Maybe I'll find a good deal on a Delta Elite (I'd prefer one with the vertical serrations) and I could get it customized. There're certainly enough of them floating around on the auction sites, thought they're expensive.

S&W needs to make an L-frame in 10mm. The N-Frame is for .41 Magnum and up, if limited to six shots. If they can put seven .357 rounds into an L-Frame cylidner, and have it still be safe for the hotloads from places like Buffalo Bore, then surely they can fit six 10mm rounds into one.

Or, they need to make a TiScan 10mm N-Frame, to lighten it up a bit. Surely a riboflavin 10mm N-Frame wouldn't be as brutal as one in .44 Magnum!
 
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http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html#delta

A 10mm CZ-97B would be way beyond cool. Basically, it would be the gun the Bren Ten should have been, but wasn't (at least not consistently). :cool:

If you want a traditional-looking 1911 in 10mm, you pretty much need to have it built yourself on a Delta Elite, or maybe a Caspian frame/slide combo from scratch.
 
Delta Elite frame cracking is real, at least on the First Edition guns. The crack occured in the frame rail over the arch shaped cut out for the slide stop. The crack did not interfere with functioning or reliablity and was self limiting. The solution as Colt found out, was to mill out this section of the frame rail, thus eliminating the cracking problem.

The one big design flaw of the Delta Elite was the recoil spring and guide rod. Colt came up with a dual coil spring of about 23 pounds and a plastic guide rod. Under the pounding of full power 10mm loads, the guide rod would only last about 500 rounds, then it began to come apart.
 
OK, a couple-three ideas.

One, Call DW early in the AM Eastern time and find out about a custom job. Since they're the ones machining the FCS's they can leave them off. Downside is that this would be more expensive than an off-the-shelf version since you would be paying MSRP instead of the discounted price.

Next is have a custom builder build you one. Even more $$$$ but definitely satisfying.

The 1006 is great, IMO. Probably what I'd look for, were I you. Downside is that it is a crunchenticker so that DA first shot takes some practice to get over so that you don't get a flyer. OTOH, I can imagine worse things than having to practice shooting....

And over on GT one member had an M646 cylinder bored a bit to take the 10mm. This is an L-frame so it makes a bit more sense to me than the 610 power/size wise. Searching the revolver forum over there should turn up the thread. Might even have talked about it over here. This has a Sc cylinder, so nuclear loads are not recommended.
 
Here's the problem. Nobody makes a 10mm pistol that I want. The only current production 10mm that I can really imagine buying is the S&W 610 revolver. (Though, if I'm going to get an N-Frame revolver, I'd be sorely tempted to make it another .45 Colt, or a .44 Magnum....)

as far as clipguns go I like the 625 better than the 610, but the 610 ain't bad.

One slightly radical idea would be to get a Pistolsmith to convert a .40S&W Sig P226ST to 10mm; for the life of me, I don't know why SigArms can't or won't pull this one off themselves
 
One slightly radical idea would be to get a Pistolsmith to convert a .40S&W Sig P226ST to 10mm; for the life of me, I don't know why SigArms can't or won't pull this one off themselves

Because... it can't be done. The 10mm cartridge is too long for magazines that will fit in the P226 frame.

The P220 could be made in 10mm, however, but it would take a new barrel & slide (among other things).
 
A couple of comments ...

An L-frame 10mm revolver sounds nice, but since Smith has chambered the nicely-trim N-frame "Mountain Gun" in every caliber but 10mm, it's time they did a run of these (Smith did a MG run in .45acp, so 10mm isn't that much of a stretch).

Yep, a CZ 97B in 10mm is #1 on my "Wanna see it happen ASAP" list.

On "converting" .40 pistols into 10mm pistols:

This can be done in some cases, but you ALWAYS have to start with the magazine. First check to see if the mag of the gun you want to convert is long enough to hold and reliably feed 10mm cartridges. Most .40 mags are not dual use .40cal/10mm mags, but are dedicated to the shorter cartridge only. If you can't find another type of mag that'll hold the 10mm AND fit in your .40 gun, there ends the "conversion" project - unless you want a one-shot autoloader.

Case in point: past posts on TFL & Pistolsmith.com have discussed how .40 HK USPs have been "converted" to 10mm because some enterprising soul discovered that ParaOrd's double-stack 10mm/.40 mags fit the mag chute of the USP and will reliably feed 10mm cartridges once the stock .40 barrel has been reamed out to 10mm specs.

Having a .40 barrel reamed to 10mm by a competent 'smith is actually one of the easier steps of the "conversion" process. Also, if the frame is a full-size unit (like on a .40 HK USP), this bodes well for the project because there's a better chance it'll hold up under the pounding of the full-power 10mm loads the owner will eventually run through it. You'll also need to beef-up the springs, which isn't a big deal since Wolff makes a variety of spring weights for most models.

Nightcrawler: keep your eyes peeled for a 1006 - they're out there. ;)

:cool:
 
I second (third???) the 1006 idea - strong guns, all steel, relatively inexpensive.
Also, several variations are available - 1006, 1066, 1076, ...

These guns are ALWAYS on gunbroker - I have NEVER done a search on '10mm' and not come up with at least two or three - That would be my advice.

The other possibility which you mentioned is a Delta Elite - they are GREAT shooters! Extremely accurate (mine is, anyway).
And, if you find one, just make sure the frame notch is cut - see here:

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html#delta
(figure 8)

You won't be dissapointed with a Delta Elite!
 
I love my 1006.

KY Imports had them in the past for $400 but I dont know if there are any left.

I did see one at a local pawn for $599 used.:what:
 
Because... it can't be done. The 10mm cartridge is too long for magazines that will fit in the P226 frame.

The P220ST could possibly work for a conversion but it would obviously be a high $$$$ gunsmith project, and you'd better live with the result since you'd have a tough nut to unload if it didn't work for you.

So lets run this down;

You don't like / want the Kimber Stainless Target or the DW Razorbaqck, the Glock 20 / 29, the EAA Witness, seems like the best bets are the old S&W semis or the 610 revolver.
 
I had one of my CCW students bring a S&W 10?? something or other. (The full size FBI one with the Sig style decocker). I was surprised how much I liked it. It shot very well, and was very accurate. I prefer 1911s to any DA/SA gun, but I was rather impressed with that S&W. Trigger was pretty good for a double action as well. We shot it less than a 100 rounds, so I cannot comment on reliability, though he says that he has never had any problems.

Or you can just buck up and learn to love front serrations. :p
 
I'd like to see Glock make a single stack 10mm to match the G36. I have a G20, S&W 1006, and S&W 610CH...now I want a small CCW 10mm. A g29 would be "ok" but a single stack would be better IMO.

Nightcrawler:

Given your likes/dislikes, I suggest you look seriously at a 1006. My glock is probably my most versitile 10mm, my 610 w/ its 2x Burris is my most accurate...but my 1006 "feels" the best in my hand. I have Hogue grips on it and 11 mags. The best part is that is was also the cheapest one to aquire. :) Now I'm looking for a S&W 1086.
 
TANFOGLIO Witness, Please.....

Don't berate an otherwise decent design by calling it an EAA Witness. I know, I know, the Witness is marketed and sold through EAA as they are the USA importer/servicing agent... but please, it is a Tanfoglio product.

In so far as the durability of the Witness frame, there have been a number of .45 ACP Witness past posts that have related experiences with cracked slides. I have a fellow IDPA shooter that has experienced just such an example, which is how he came to have a .38 Super blued top end on a stainless frame(yes, at one time Tanfoglio made a stainless Witness. Discontinued it though, seems they couldn't get the alloy right). Additionally, D.R. Middlebrooks(a shooting competitor of some note) who has used Witness pistols fairly exclusively in the past(and smith's them, or did for some considerable time), has indicated that the slide stop hole in the frame eventually "eggs out" under repeated high volume, hard use with heavy recoiling ammunition. This may also have been related by EGW(Evolution Gun Works), who has a stalwart reputation in the IPSC crowd, as they were very well known for producing race pistols based on the Tan Witness(some time back though).

Finally, I can speak with some experience on the EAA CS(or lack there of) issue. Head on over to the old TFL and do a search on my handle and EAA. You will find several other posters that voiced similar experiences in having dealt with EAA. To bad the links on my posts are no longer valid, as the moderators of the other forums have cleaned house of older posts. Unfortunately, my experience was not isolated to only the Witness line-up, as my research has turned up examples of other customers with rifles and shotguns that were handled brusquely by EAA. Seems if a problem is more than a little challenging or EAA can't figure out what the cause may be, you're the cause of the problem. That's the short version. I had(and still have) a 10mm Tan Compact Witness in Wonder finish. Sweet to hold, but a b$tch for function. Very picky about what it likes and for how long. Three trips to EAA and it still doesn't function reliably! The full size 10mm Tan's seem to experience a higher degree of reliability, more so than the compact.

Best bet on the search for your 10mm: get a S&W 10xx series. You can not go wrong with the Tank of 10mm pistols. Ahhh, if only we could convince S&W to bring back the 10xx series.... oh to dream:) !


Sean,

Thinking on the Sig 220 thing. Might be easier to get a .38 Super slide insert and cartridge guide and .38 Super mags. Alter the slide insert to match the 10mm head profile and cartridge guide for feeding, the mag lips for same(feeding that is). Then the stoutest recoil spring that Wolff makes for the 220 and a frame buffer. Then again, the alloy frame of the Classic 220 would probably not stand the strain.... Oh yeah, the barrel. Hmmm, rebore and chamber a .38 Super barrel to 10mm(Oooo, not sure about that one)?!?
 
Following this thread and others like it, I'd been watching for a 1006
(or 1026 or 1046) -
but I just ran across a Megastar 10, which seems to be even MORE of a tank than the 10xx models. Shoots nice too.
 
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