.357 compared to 10mm?

[Nightcrawler]

I'm not looking for a "which is better" thread. I'm just curious as to how these two compare ballistically. With factory loads, they're about equal, but what about with handloads?

They both have a similar range of bullet weights, and, at least from a factory loading standpoint seem to have similar velocities. But, can the 10mm be loaded as hot as .357 can be with handloads?

I would think that 10mm's limiting factor would be the guns that it's chambered in. A standard-framed autoloader, ala the Glock 20 or Delta Elite, isn't as strong as a Ruger Blackhawk or GP100, is it?

Then there's the .357 Desert Eagle. 158 grains at 1600+ fps is doable and easy to shoot out of this massive piece. Could you do that with a 155grn .400 cal bullet out of a Glock 20 with a 6" barrel?

If so, are there .357 loads that, say, the DE, GP100, and Blackhawk could take that would damage a G20 or Delta Elite (if an equivalent 10mm load were fired in these guns)?

NOT looking for handloading data, here, just interested in bullet weights and velocities. All handloaders should, of course, work up slowly and use common sense. The insurance company isn't going to buy you new fingers if you blow up your Delta Elite trying to replicate what you can do with a .357 Blackhawk.

If the standard framed automatics limit the capabilities of the 10mm round, what about the S&W 610 revolver? Smith N-frames aren't the strongest revolvers around, but it's the same frame as their .44 Magnums but has thicker cylinder walls due to the smaller diameter cartridge.

Just academically curious, here. Got to thinking about the .357 Desert Eagle. WAs wondering if a gun that big was necessary for the power that you can achieve with the .357 round.

 

[braindead0]

If you compare standard load data 'power factor' (ie: bullet weight * velocity), the .357 wins is a bit more powerful:


.357 180gr JHP 1422fps (Hodgens Lil'Gun) : 255,960

180gr 10mm JHP 1,242fps (alliant #9): 223,560

These are the hottest powder manufacturer recommended loads I can find.

That being said, handloads.com has some 1300fps load shot out of a Delta Elite with reportedly no signs of overpressure. And I've got one .357 load that pushes a 173gr LSWC to nearly 1600fps ~275,000.

My guess would be that a strong .357 would be a superior platform for experimenting. For the 10mm, you could probably experiment some with a S&W 610 but I don't think you would be able to safely push quite as much as you can with .357 in a strong modern single action, GP-100, RedHawk and the like.

As always, YMMV ;-)

 

[agtman]

Hot 10mm factory loads ....


Here are the stats (e.g., velocities) on some of the hotter 10mm factory loads I've had personal experience with:

Texas Ammo - 200gn XTP & FMJ loads @ 1250fps/694fpe;

Texas Ammo - 165gn HP @ 1350fps/668fpe;

Proload - 180gn GDHP @ 1200fps/575fpe;

G.A. - 180gn GDHP @ 1150fps/528fpe;

G.A. - 155gn GDHP @ 1375fps/651fpe

Hornady 180gn XTP @ 1180fps/556fpe;

CorBon 200gn "Penetrator" @ 1200fps/639fpe;

CorBon 180gn Bonded SP @ 1300fps/675fpe;

Winchester 175gn STHP @ (allegedly) 1290fps/647fpe.

I like the .357 magnum, and have fired it in Desert Eagles and in several models of S&W revolvers. The heaviest factory bullet-weight I've shot was the 158gn JHP, but I'm not sure of the velocity - 1300fps sounds about right.

For practical concealed carry and everyday packability in an autoloader, the envelopes for the 10mm Auto seem more plentiful than for those chambered in .357 mag. In 10mm, you have the conventionally-sized Glocks, Smiths, Deltas/1911s, and the Tanfaglio Witnesses.

In .357 mag, you have .... the Desert Eagles and the Coonan. The latter was a nice package, but the size and weight of the Des. Eagle puts it right up there with the other pants-droopin' behemoths, like the Wildey's, AutoMags and Grizzlies.

 

[euclid]

If you look at factory loads from garden-variety pistols that have not been amped up to handle hunting cartridges, I think you'll find that the 10mm will deliver as much or more energy at the muzzle as a .357 mag service pistol, but the 10mm will do it with heavier bullets.

poof...

 

[caz223]

Since you're talking about handloading and revolvers, there are better ways to get there.
Gary Reeder rechambers .357 magnum SA rugers in his wildcat, the 356GNR.
This is a .41 magnum necked down to .357 magnum.
If you want to compare 2 similar rounds, then try .41 mag and 10mm.
Of course, there's the 10mm magnum...
The 10mm is right in between .357 and .41 (Maybe a little closer to .41).
I wouldn't go nuclear with .357 or 10mm to prove a point.
If you need more power, get a wildcat, or move up in caliber.

 

[isaidme]

I found these for the 10mm

Triton 1400fps/506lbs in 135gr
Glaser Blue 1,650fps/695lbs in 115gr
Glaser Silver 1,650fps/695lbs in 115gr
Magsafe defender 1,800fps/960lbs in 96gr
Magsafe swat 2,400fps/588lbs in 46gr

Do these numbers mean anything to anyone

 

[Tamara]

A couple of years ago, Ruger and Davidson's released a special edition Vaquero in .38-40 with a .40 S&W cylinder.

I bought one and with a couple of quick twists with a chamber reamer, et voila!, I had a 10mm Auto single action Ruger; the perfect platform for 10mm handloading experimentation...




(Now I just need to set up to load 10mm Auto... )

 

[munk]

Does anyone remember what Norma's original hot load for the 10 was? I don't, but I know they stopped making it.

For many years the 10mm was the only practical way to get 357 power out of a carryable autoloader. I'm not really sure that has changed much, despite things like the 357 sig.


munk

 

[Nightcrawler]

So, is something as beefy as, say, a .357 Desert Eagle or Blackhawk revolver kind of pointless when you can get the same power out of a Glock 29?

And if autoloaders can easily handle 10mm loads that beat heavy .357 hunting loads, why does anyone complain about .45 Super being too hard on guns? It's the same thing as 10mm but with a bigger bore.

 

[munk]

I don't know most auto loaders can 'easily handle' the 10, or if such weapons beat the heavy 357 handloads. Some 10's were stronger than others.

I have no idea what the backthrust of the 45 Super is, though I imagine it is similar to the 10. Power is hard on guns. People wear out model 29's, especially the older ones. The 357 is hard on the original Smith frame size.

I think the 10 comes down to if one wants an auto, and can carry the full size gun and weight comfortably. Glocks, and modern composites lighten the load but not the dimensions.

These questions probably aren't even directed at me, I just thought I'd take a stab!

I still carry a short 45 Colt Ruger. I don't consider it beefy in the class of a DE, but it is an outdoor gun or thrown into a coat pocket.

The 357 and 10mm are two great rounds. There isn't a bad choice.



munk

 

[Gordy Wesen]

Originally the 10mm was loaded:
200g @ 1200fps
170g @ 1300fps


The discussion doesn't mention the fact that a fully loaded Glock 29 with 1 pre-ban mag as a backup gives a fellow 26 rounds. The 357 comes with 6 and 6 in a speed loader. For me, that works better out in the toolies.

 

[Nightcrawler]

The discussion doesn't mention the fact that a fully loaded Glock 29 with 1 pre-ban mag as a backup gives a fellow 26 rounds. The 357 comes with 6 and 6 in a speed loader. For me, that works better out in the toolies.

There's a reason for that. I was just interested in the comparative ballistics of the two cartridges, not the whole semiauto vs. revolver thing.

FWIW, though, you can purchase three speedloaders and a triple speedloader pouch for a LOT less than the $130 or so you'd drop down on a preban G20 mag. *shrug*

But it's not the point. The gun in question could just as easily be a S&W 610 10mm revolver.

Hmm. I'm thinking that in a big, beefy gun, .357 has the ballistics edge, due simply to the strength of the guns involved. A .357 Blackhawk will simply be able to withstand a lot more high-powered loads than a G20. I've heard of 158 grains at 1700fps out of a DE .357. Can you safely push a 155 grain 10mm bullet to 1700fps out of a Glock 20 or a Delta Elite?

 

[Gordy Wesen]

Man, you stay up late.
I'd have to go with you in view of your question in favor of the .357. I remember a story about a warden in MT who went belly to belly with a black bear during a release and pumped 6 rounds into the beast. Luckily, the bear dropped dead. If I faced the exact same situation and could pick my loads I would pack a .357 instead of a 10mm if limited to those.

 

[tex_n_cal]

I have a Delta Elite with standard non-ramped Bar-sto barrel, which is wickedly accurate and reliable

with Sierra 155's, 1420 fps bulges the case heads over the ramp and is flirting w. disaster

One grain less powder gives 1340 fps, and no bulges You can duplicate this load pretty easily with Cor-Bon ammo.

You probably won't find too many factory .357 loads that do much more, and the Colt holds 9+1 with CMC mags. There's a Model 27 in the safe that is calling for Keith bullets & Lil'Gun, though.

Then again, there is also a M610 - 6.5" barrel in town that is calling for a new owner, too

 

[Nightcrawler]

*whew* Just got back from a long, slow, four mile run. Lord Almighty I loathe running.

Anyways, I'm not a handloader. The bullet weights and velocities I refer to are just what I've heard is possible here on THR, and back on TFL.

With .357 out of a 5-6", STRONG revolver (GP100, M28, Redhawk, Blackhawk, Vaquero) such loads as 158 grains at 1600 feet per second ARE possible and safe, with the right brass, right powder, right bullet, and right primer. The hottest FACTORY .357 ammunition I know of is Georgia Arms' Deerstopper, which pushes a 158 grain jacketed hollow point bullet to 1,475 feet per second. Now, that's pretty durn potent right there.

You can, as I understand it, get more if you work your way up slowly, and use the proper components.

A couple things to keep in mind if you want to try this, though.

1- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T TAKE MY WORD ON ANY OF THIS. Ask experienced handloaders, consult reloading manuals, and double check everythign.

2- GET A STRONG GUN. This is not stuff you want to put in your Cimmarron SAA clone, K-Frame S&W, etc. Loads like this are best left to Blackhawks, Redhawks, GP100s, Desert Eagles, and maybe S&W Model 28s (N-Framed .357).

3- BE CAREFUL. This ain't worth losing fingers over.

That disclaimer said. I wonder what 10mm could do if you had a stronger gun than a standard framed semiauto. Imagine an overbeefy 10mm autoloader (a 10mm Desert Eagle would seem odd, but what the heck), or a 610 revolver.

The BEST experimentation platform would be Tamara's 10mm Vaquero, of course.

 

[braindead0]

It seems many folks on this thread think the 10mm can pack more power than the .357, which I don't believe is true. Even factory standard load data for .357 is hotter. About the only thing the 10mm can do better is heavier bullets, which could have a purpose.

Firepower wise, the 10 wins I think but bullet wise I don't think you can push a 10mm quite as far as you can with a .357. OTOH, the Vaquero in 10mm, now that should handle some serious ooomph.

 

[caz223]

Why are you guys working backwards?
I mean going to a ruger SA wheelgun just to get more power safely in a 10mm.
That same ruger SA wheelgun chambered in say, 44 mag can trounce the 10mm without breaking a sweat, and do it safely.
If 15+1 of factory warmish loads (Or equivalent, yet safe handloads) in a Glock 20 with an aftermarket hunting barrel isn't hot enough for you, then move up to a hotter caliber...
If you want to push the safety limits with handloading, knock yourself out.
Just remember, they are your fingers and eyes, and you were probably warned against it at some point...

 

[Tamara]

caz223,

Why did I ream my .40 Vaquero cylinder out to 10mm instead of buying a .44 Mag Vaquero?

Well, because I already had a .44 Mag Vaquero and I wanted a 10mm Auto SA wheelgun too, that's why. I don't get too wrapped up in trying to justify my wants as needs.

 

[Handy]

I think you missed Caz's point, Tamara. He's saying that using a Blackhawk soully to achieve overpressure loads is a bad idea, since heavier loads are available in the appropriate calibers.

He isn't saying that any chambering, including 10mm, is bad, just tthat it's not worth pushing the load in whatever chambering.


Along those lines, maybe the question should be, "How does the heaviest sane loads for 10mm and .357 compare?" This is just like comparing .45 ACP and .45 LC. You have to leave the TC/Blackhawk loads out of the equation to really make a comparison. Otherwise, anything you decide about 10 and .357 goes out the window once a stronger 10mm auto comes out.

 

[Majic]

If you are goint to compare the 2 cartridges apple to apple you first have to level the playing field. The big numbers for the .357mag comes from platforms with 8" barrels, while number for the 10mm comes from 5" barreled platforms.
Take a bullet of same weight in both calibers (such as 180gr.), load it with the same powder and primer, fire it from similar platforms with equal barrel lengths (no semi-auto vs revolver because of the revolver having the open gap between the chamber and barrel), and the 10mm will win because it has a greater internal capacity. The 10mm also runs at a higher chamber pressure, but not by much (10mm@37,500 psi and .357@35,000 psi).

 

[Majic]

Braindead0,
while not talking about the platforms shot from, why can't you push a 10mm bullet as hard as you can push a .357mag?

 

[Sean Smith]

Y'all are comparing non-standard, Ruger-only .357 Magnum handloads with 10mm book data and declaring .357 Magnum the winner as a result?



In factory ammo, 10mm wins. 180gr @ 1320 ft/sec (Cor-Bon JSP) and 200gr @ 1,250 ft/sec from TAC XTPs beats anything in .357 Magnum I've ever seen on a shelf. The closest thing you will find is the Georgia Arms "Deer Stopper" .357 load, but remember that those ballistics are from a 6" barrel, while the Cor-Bon ballistics are from a 4.6" barrel. From a 6" barrel the Cor-Bon 180gr JSP has been clocked at over 1,400 feet per second. So you'd have parity there if the 10mm bullet wasn't bigger AND heavier to boot...

With handloads... 10mm probably still wins. Haven't any of you guys heard of 800-X? Or, to keep the platforms comparable (rather than comparing gun designs), long OAL 10mm loads with magnum primers and lots of slow powder for the 610 revolver?

At *worst*, the two cartridges have comparable capabilities when all other factors are equal.

 

[Handy]

Majic,

I don't think you can do the apples and apples thing to the extent you mention. The cases have different volumes, are supported differently (one is extracted under partial pressure), and have differing amounts of bearing surface per bullet weight. Given all that, using the same powders would not provide the best comparison.

But a good comparison would come from comparing performance and bullet weight, say at 180 gr. and 135 gr. with the most efficient powders for each, at or below max pressures, fired from service type pistols (5" auto and a 4" revolver). That would at least be equittable.


I suspect, with careful reloading, it would be almost a wash.

 

[caz223]

I guess it strikes me as funny that you guys are making a discussion over this really, really sick horse.
I can shoot my .357 magnum in my tapered cannon made out of specially hardened tunsten-titanium alloy with 2700 grains of 'lil gun over a primer charge of 14 grams of astrolite G, buffered with det cord, ignited with a blasting cap lit by an electric match, and it's faster than any listed load with 10mm.
Mind you, it's a *really* compressed load.
Starline brass only. (Had to throw that in there somewhere.)

Not flaming, 'jes funnin'.

 

[Majic]

Handy,
To comment on what you have said:
Because of the different volumes the scales tilt in favor of the 10mm as it has the largest volume capacity.
You would have to use similar platforms, no semi-auto vs revolver. Take a S&W model 610 w/4" barrel vs any S&W .357mag w/4" barrel.
If you adjust the bearing surface of a 10mm bullet to equal that of a given .357 bullet you would have to go with a shorter 10mm bullet and that means a lighter bullet. The lighter the bullet, the faster it can be pushed. That also tilts the scale in favor of the 10mm.
There is no way a cartridge fired in a 4" revolver will equal the same cartridge fired in a 5" semi-auto. The semi-auto has no barrel to cylinder gap for loss of pressure and it is also 1" longer.
If you use different powders then you inject a variable in your experiment and variables should be held to a minimum in comparisons.
If you take a given bullet weight, load it in different cartridge cases to maximum capacity, fire it from like platforms with equal barrel lengths, the larger cartridge case will develop more velocity and energy than the smaller cased cartridge because the case holds more propellant. Also the larger diameter bullet which starts out faster than the smaller caliber bullet will lose velocity at a greater rate due to the better BC of the longer smaller caliber bullet.
The original question was about handloads, not factory ammunition and to answer that I say yes. In fact the 10mm can be loaded close to the power of the .41mag.