One-hand gun skills?

[Gomez]

Yesterday, while at the range, I decided to run my cohort through various & sundry one-hand drills. These consisted of primary hand only and off-hand only iterations of weapon presentation, stoppage reductions, double feeds and mag changes along with assorted grounded shooting positions done with one hand. Along for the ride was a relative newcomer to defensive training (and absolute newcomer to defensive use of firearms). One of the questions that was asked, was "is this what most people do, when they go to the range".

She was speaking of the entire range session in general, ie drawing from concealment, movement, verbalizations, etc and not explicitly the one-hand work but it caused me to recall a class that I took a while back in which the instructor asked how many people practiced stoppage reductions. Then he asked, how many practiced them one-handed. Then he asked,how many practiced dealing with double feeds, etc. The deal was that by the end of his questions, I was the only one with my hand up (the question, by that point, was "Who practices dealing with off-hand only, double feeds?") That was in an upper level class with about 10 other shooters.

At another class, the instructors mentioned several times how important it was to be able to run your gear one-handed. Yet when I asked them when they were going to schedule a one-hand shooters class, they told me that there was no interest and they wouldn't bother.:banghead:

So, I guess my questions are 1) How many people practice one-hand drills?, 2) How often do you practice them? and 3) How do you feel that your skills hold up in between practicng them?

FWIW, www.krtraining.com does a really good downed-shooter/one hand shooting class. It's his one-day AT-III class which is taught by Wendell Joost. I think Karl offers AT-III every other year.

 

[Chris Rhines]

I was just chating about this with jrhines the other night.

I practice one-hand drills, with both pistols and longarms. The vast majority of my one-hand and off-hand practice is done during my nightly dry-fire regimen. I do quick and slow-fire, presentations, presentations from my off-side, reloads, and various malfunction drills, all with my right and left hand. Often I'll tie a loop of 550 cord around my wrist and secure it to my belt, to keep myself from 'cheating' with the imobolized limb.

And yes, I do practice off-hand double-feed malfunction clearences. From my back. Gack. One of these days I'll manage to clear one in under ten seconds.

All in all, I'd say that around 30-40% of my dry practice and around 10% of my live-fire practice is done with one hand. I also shoot some bullseye pistol, which is all one-handed and makes for useful cross-training.

As for how my skills have held up, I would say pretty well. I haven't noticed my times slipping or my manipulations becoming less positive when I get to the range. Still need to keep on it.

- Chris

 

[Mute]

Yes. Whenever I dry-fire practice. And while I can do them, I would hate to do a double feed stoppage clearance with one hand if my life was in danger. I think I'd opt for running and trying to clear the gun when the opportunity presents itself instead if the choice was available.

 

[Gomez]

Mute,

Absolutely agree. Moving immediately to cover (if you weren't already doing so) or simply closing with the threat (if you are too close &/or no cover is available) is by far a more useful survival response.

Chris,

Thanks for the imput. I guess the reason I'm asking how well the skills have held up is because I haven't been practicing them regularly, but yesterday they all were there and at a very decent level (ie, no "teachable moments" due to my failing to properly execute something ). Given how awkward the skills were for me to gain proficiency in, I was pleasantly surprised how well they held up.

So far that's 2 replies out of 16 views. (scratches head. licks thumb, counts fingers...) About 1/8 affirmative replies. We'll see how the numbers look after a little more time.

 

[Soap]

1) I practice them mostly with dryfire. Probably about 20% of my practice is one hand. About 10% is devoted to malf clearances with both hands and either hand alone. Normally I practice in my Po' College Kid apartment living room by starting in the hallway, and then moving around the corner for cover while performing the drill.

2) Malf drills are done at least once per week.

3) Depends. Most of it sticks pretty well except for the dreaded off hand double feed, what I call the "Type " malfunction. This one never comes easy, but practice has made it much easier!

 

[P95Carry]

In pure shooting terms, I've always been one for a lot of single handed .. with quite an emphasis on weak hand also. Dry firing . same.

As for malfunctions .... gotta admit, my abilities with auto's are very lacking . something I should look to. Never however had too much prob with revo's ... particularly the various Smiths I have had.

Are there any good bits of writing on techniques for single handed clearance of auto's?? I'd like to look into this in more detail, now you bring it up.

 

[Smoke]

I have practiced most of the drills at some point. I don't do it regularly. I do FTF one hand drills the most, but even that is not as often as should be.

IF I am in a situation where I have to rely on more advanced one hand drills, I'm liable to bend over and kiss my butt good-bye.

 

[Frohickey]

I've done a few one handed drills, shooting, reloading, clearing, etc. Need to do more, and on a more regular basis.

As for the comment about opting to run for cover before doing the one handed clearing and stuff.

Imagine that you have already run to cover.
Imagine that someone has already called 9-1-1, and that they are 7 minutes away.
Imagine that the bad guy is not running away, and doesn't want any live witnesses.

I'd have run, gotten to cover, and I'm not gonna wait with a pistol with a double-feed/misfire for the cops to arrive. I'm going to try and fix the double-feed, and give the bad guy a few pieces of lead if the bad guy decides to come after me behind cover. Sure, the cops might find me dead, but I'll get more respect from them if they see my bullet-riddled body with a slide-locked 1911 with an empty magazine, a round on the floor, and a blood trail going away to where the bad guy went.

 

[P95Carry]

Just thinking on a bit ... here is a case if one were ever needed, for that back-up piece. Even a pocket Kel-Tec or ankle rig snubby ....... hmmm .......

 

[Gomez]

P95carry,

If you carry a second gun that is as accessable as your primary, the second gun becomes the default response for WHENEVER the primary gun fails to go bang. If the second gun is carried in an out-of-the-way place, it depends on which you can do faster (fix the primary or access the secondary). I've been carrying two Glocks (a M19 strongside & a M26 offside) and the time difference between reloading the M19 versus drawing the M26 has me drawing the M26 a whole lot more. If I had a P32 in a pocket holster or a J-frame in an ankle rig, I'd go ahead and reload the primary (if it was simply empty) or Tap-Rack, but when it comes to a double-feed, definitely going for another gun, if available. When you factor in the time to deal with a stoppage reduction or double feed, drawing the second gun is a no brainer.

 

[Still Learning]

Practice one hand shooting--need to start malfunction drills

1) One-handed drawing and firing drills constitute from 10 to 20 percent of my live fire practice and about 50 percent of my dry fire practice.

2) Live fire practice is at least once per week. This time of year it goes to an average of three times per week. Dry fire practice is several times per week. I try to make myself do it daily but so far it's been an empty promise to myself.

3) For me it seems to be "carrying over" pretty well. Went over two weeks this summer without firing a single live round and my times were the same and hits were all good.

I've tried one-handed malfunction drills exactly once. Tried to copy the moves from a magazine article. I was worse than terrible (time me with a calendar instead of a stopwatch) and gave up. Decided running, second gun, or closing with threat--pretty much in that order--were best answers for me. I need to find an instructor to show me the proper way to practice these one-handed malfunction clearing techniques.

 

[Gomez]

Still Learning,

While I haven't trained with any of these skools, I've heard some very good things about Michael Brown's training (www.thepraesidiumgroup.com) . There's also Paul Abel's www.shoot-n-iron.com. And TDSA has a Tulsa branch, as well (www.tdsa.net).

I think that Michael's Close Quarters Tactics class would give you what you're looking for and then some.

 

[El Tejon]

Gomez,

1) I do;
2) every time I shoot, pistol or long gun;
3) I hope I never have to find out!

 

[Gomez]

El Tejon,

How come I'm not surprised?

 

[Still Learning]

Thanks, Gomez!

I just now saw your reply. I think I'll check some of these guys out. I've heard both good and not-so-good about the Shoot N Iron courses...probably have to find out for myself. Too bad I missed the close quarters course last month.

Also, the carbine course in September might be fun with the Praesidium group.

Thanks again.

 

[Doc]

Mute:

With respect :

...I would hate to do a double feed stoppage clearance with one hand if my life was in danger.
I think I'd opt for running and trying to clear the gun when the opportunity presents itself instead ...

just some venting and observations:

I would always run, FIRST.
I would continue to run, FAST and AWAY from the threat.

If there were cover, I hope I would use it,
but stopping to make a stand REALLY does not interest me.
And in most venues the victim has both a duty to retreat,
and the right to respond only with EQUAL force to the BG.

one hand and weak hand drills PRESUME we have already been shot!
Why else would we try to clear a double feed with our weak hand!!
Please use the same malfunction clearance mantra everytime--
avoid the temptation to examine the gun,
think the problem is "A" and try to solve "A".

TAP-RACK-ATTEMPT TO FIRE
no bang
UNLOAD-RACK-RACK-RACK-RELOAD-RACK-ATTEMPT TO FIRE
bang!

Being shot isn't bad, it's just what happened in the fight,
but it sure puts a different spin on things!

we are never as good with our non-dominant hand,
which is why we need to practice with it ALOT;
more than we need to punch holes at 7 yds with our dominant hand.

if I was in mortal danger
I WOULD HATE TO NOT BE ABLE TO CLEAR THE STOPPAGE,
and clear it quickly.

don't forget if, God forbid, you really are in a gunfight for your life
Murphy will be there laughing along with/at you
and EVERYTHING which might go wrong, WILL.

I found the post mortem of the
North Miami shoot out with Platt & Mattix VERY INTERESTING.
Trained FBI agents got the short end of the stick
and they did in a fight, what they had done in training
some times to their detriment.

I am not critcizing you I have sought out training and education from those who know
I value their opinions and reiterate them freely.

I have some very realistic expectations of
lethal force encounters.
I know absolutely that I can run my gear.
Practice (of manipulation skills and malfunction drills) is more important than trigger time.
And I know absolutely that my gear is reliable:
"if you die we split your gear" if you die, I DON'T WANT YOUR GEAR!

Use a reliable gun; "got a gun you like? get one just like it" and have a back up.

If you carry a second weapon, you should be EQUALLY COMPETENT with it.
In the PD if you want to carry a secondary weapon, you have to qualify with it with your NON-DOMINANT HAND.
Most officers rethink that
342-ultralight-kicks-like-a-monster
and go with the smaller frame sibling to their duty gun (ie glock 22 & 27).

If my ________ didn't work, I would chuck it over the berm and get new.
(Based on the posts I read,
most of my fellow THRs are avid gun buyers,
so buying new gear THAT WORKS
to replace gear that doesn't shouldn't be a problem )


The ONLY reason to fight is to win.
Only HITS count
and the BG's don't fall down
like in the movies and make snow angles.

The BG only has to be lucky, you have to be good.

 

[El Tejon]

Doc, now I remember why I asked you here. Well said. The only thing I would add is that mindset (awareness, so you don't get in a fight--"Any moron can get in a fight, just look at Freeman") trumps both manip, mals and trigger time.

 

[caz223]

For the need to practice something I'll use decision making.
The need/want anaylsis is like this.
How likely is this skill to come in handy, and how serious would it be if you needed it, and never practiced it?
Let's start with how likely.

I'd have to be in a SHTF situation.
While carrying concealed.
Wounded/strong side disabled.
And have a weapon malfunction.
Sudden, serious need to have the weapon returned "hot" immediately.

I'm not a police officer, and I'm not required to place myself in harm's way.

Likeliness, in my estimation, pretty darn remote, way less than .01%.

Seriousness, you would think would be high, but I'd rather consider other options available to me, like retreating, finding better cover/concealment, gaining tactical superiority, etc.
My weapon is not going to be a priority to me anymore, because my proficiency with it will be severely reduced if I were:
1) Wounded.
2) Under stress.
3) Limited to weak hand.
4) Weapon demonstrated to be unreliable in it's current condition.
(Loss of confidence, and the malfunction may re-occur.)

Those are the reasons I don't practice weak handed/one handed malfunction drills.
Also, If I were to train in this fashion, I think when SHTF (You fall back on your training, good or bad.) I would obsess on returning the gun to operation, rather than retreating, finding better cover, etc.

If you practice this way, that's fine, more power to you, I just don't think it's necessary FOR ME.

 

[Doc]

OK with that preamble, I take this defending my life and family VERY SERIOUSLY.

If you want to dismiss lethal force encounters as unlikely, so be it.

But the ONLY way I figure it is:

I only fight because I have no other choice.
I only fight to win.
I will do anything necessary to win.

To quote a mentor: "ALWAYS CHEAT, ALWAYS WIN!"

Please consider Murphy's law and reliability of simple mechanical devices;
and that incoming fire has the right of way. Just for the record,
most fencing touches are scored on the dominant hand and arm,
BECAUSE THEY ARE CLOSEST TO THE FIGHT. So it is also with lethal force encounters.

So there's my first flame. NO OFFENSE MEANT. I just have strong opinions and welcome any in return.

Doc

 

[sm]

Doc
I didn't read a flame, I read wise words.

That said I do practice these drills, dry and live fire. I did as a matter of fact yesterday, with live fire. My gunsmith set up "situations", for us to practice. Well lets just say dry practice is good, live fire is better...

 

[Tim Burke]

Hands and arms are frequently hit during gunfights.
Most people that are shot with handguns survive.
Most people that are shot execution style do not.
The best way to avoid being shot execution style is to stay in the fight.
To quote a different mentor: The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare.
If I were willing to trust my life to the probabilities, I wouldn't even carry a gun, because most days, I'm probably not going to need it.

 

[Mute]

Now listen carefully. When I said that I'd opt to run instead, I'm not saying that you should not need to train on one hand malf clearance or that you shouldn't try to do so while in a firefight. All I'm saying is you need to consider ALL possibilities and options, and react accordingly.

You might be able to do a weak-hand, double stoppage clearance in 3 seconds flat. You can also get shot in the head in 3 seconds flat. Don't just stand there going through your malfunction clearance routine thinking, I'm so fast, I'll have myself back in the fight in no time. Like Gomez said, running away or closing the distance and going h-t-h are also effective solutions when done properly.

 

[Tim Burke]

Running may be the best step. It may be sufficient to get you out of the fight, it may get you to cover, or it may buy you enough time to clear your malfunction.
A one hand double feed may take a while... I just tried it and it took 25 seconds strong and 22 seconds weak. This was with a barricade to aid in manipulations, and the magazines came out easily. That's forever in a gunfight.

 

[caz223]

If you were actually that serious about having a operational weapon when the chips were down, and actually think that it may happen to you, then you would be wise to have a backup gun (And a backup plan.), and carry it. One of the basics. Combat redundancy. Them airweight smiths make excellent NY reloads.
Carry two of them if you want.
I'm still not losing any sleep over it.
Mr. Murphy and me, we go way back.
He was a house guest of mine for many years, but I haven't seen him lately.
I'm glad to see that we can all have a civil discussion.
The problem with training weak or one handed malf drills is that you're not under the same stress.
You aren't limited to gross motor skills.
You're not exhausted from running.
Adrenaline is not a factor.
You don't have tunnel vision when you're training.
If you want to train to do weak one handed malf drills try this:
Work a regular day.
Work out. Swim, run a few miles, lift weights, whatever.
Eat your regular meal after you get home.
Then stay up all night. Don't lay on the couch, do something mentally taxing, menial. Sort your brass by headstamp, or sort and roll all the loose change in your house, or something similar.
Drink caffeinated pop if you must, at least a two liter.
Don't eat anything else.
Obtain two of the biggest size expressos you can find.
Go to an area where you can train. Your eyes hurt? Good.
Cause a malfunction in your gun to clear, please use snap caps, sized empty cases, or blank cartridges.
If you don't have access to any of these, load your mag with spent brass. If your gun feeds empties, put an empty in the chamber, then put a mag full of empties in it, and close the slide on the empty, instant jam.
Put vaseline or something slippery on the slide and grip of your gun, and apply liberally to your hands, forehead, and on the bags under your eyes...
Slam the two expressos.
Do jumping jacks until your side hurts.
Immediately run fifty yards as fast as you can to your gun, behind cover.
For effect, begin recording with a microcassette recorder, saying start when you start, and stop when you sucessfully cleared the jam. Feel free to comment on the tape while doing the drills, it will help you later.
Do the malf drill you describe 5 or six times, weak handed, using gross motor skills. Pay attention to your surroundings while doing so.
Put the stuff away.
Go home and get some sleep.
Rewind your recorder. Press play.
Start timer when you hear "start", note time when you hear "stop". You will probably be hearing profanity, or at very least some entertaining vocalizations.
Every time you think you train enough, or are prepared enough, listen to the tape, for a good laugh.
Buy a small revolver, and carry it as a backup to your primary gun instead. Much better.

 

[caz223]

For another eye-opener, take that same tape, rewind it.
Stretch out, press play, and start running as fast as you can when you hear the word "start".
Stop running when you hear "stop"
How much ground did you cover?
Could you get from the TV to the fridge?
Could you run to the mailbox?
Do you remember if you were looking around when you were clearing the jam, or could somebody just run up to you and hit you with a 2x4? (If you can't vividly remember looking around, that means that you didn't.)
How far away would they have to be for you to have time to clear the jam?
Could you make better use of your time by putting distance between you and danger?
Things to think about...