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One off Concealed Carry Stories

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by SCMikeyP, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Thomas Mayberry

    Thomas Mayberry Member

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    Go back an re-read Joe Henry's post but I'll sum it up for what the panhandler and witness would have seen. One man approaches another asking for money, the other man places his hand in his pocket and says I've got nothing for you". The panhandler leaves. Who was threatened? No one. Who saw an offensive act? No one. As in your post, he did not indicate to anyone present that he had a firearm.

    You are correct in that retired officers don't make charging decisions (BTW, I know that) but I base my response on three decades of experience in law enforcement.
     
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  2. milemaker13

    milemaker13 Member

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    No.. because there were no 'actions' to explain. He checked his pocket for change and found none. He then explained that fact to the other person.
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Preparing for what might happen is fine, as long as such action does not involve a deadly weapon.

    How about assault: Simply indicating to someone that you are armed and causing that person to believe that you will use your gun can constitute assault, absent conditions of necessity that would make such action excusable under the law.

    It is not necessary to actually draw a firearm or to point it at someone to commit the crime of assault. Simply indicating to someone that you are armed and causing that person to believe that you will use your gun can constitute assault, absent conditions of necessity that would make such action excusable under the law.

    The existence of an immediate need to defend oneself or a third person, or in some rare cases to prevent certain felonies, is a defense against the charge of assault. Justification varies among states. In the majority of states, one would be justified only if conditions were such that deadly force would be justified.

    In a few states, the threshold for justification is lower. In those states, the law provides for the lawful display of a weapon under conditions in which non-deadly, physical force is justified.

    In Arizona, the law provides for the defensive display of a weapon, such as placing one’s hand on it, exposing the gun, or telling a person that one is armed. Prior to a recent change in the law, doing any one of those things without justification for the use of deadly force had been considered aggravated assault. Now, the justification can include any justification that would permit the use of non-deadly physical force. That may not justify actually drawing a firearm.

    How the witness would have interpreted that is not possible to establish until he or she is heard from.

    And he or she my not have seen the entire encounter.

    Again, a matter of perception and interpretation.

    Perception. That was the unsuccessful argument of defendants who mereely put their hands into purses or onto their clothing in Arizona, Too manne of them served time for aggravated assault.

    That led to the enactment of the Defensive Display of a Firearm law.

    But under that law, the justification for the lawful use non-deadly, physical force would be necessary.

    Being asked for money does not justify that.

    That might work, provided the gun has been disposed of before the issue arises, but I would not want to rely on untruths to keep from becoming a prohibited person.
     
  4. milemaker13

    milemaker13 Member

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    Ok.
     
  5. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    I tend to err very heavily on the side of caution because my home state, Colorado has (IMO) a very low threshold for menacing. You don't even have to have a gun on you, you just gave to indicate "verbally or otherwise" that you have one to be charged. I operate on the assumption that if I so much as touch my gun I'm going to have to justify my actions.

    People aren't stupid. I had a Methhead threaten to assault me about a year ago. He drew back like he was getting ready to punch me and I put my hand in my pocket prepatory to drawing my handgun and he knew exactly what I was doing. He even said "If you pull a gun on me I'm going to knock you TF out." He said it while he was beating feet away from me but he said it.

    So looking at the scenario we're discussing the panhandler approaches the poster and asks for money and the poster reaches into his pocket. Some third party calls it in and the police show up. The first thing they do is check the poster's pocket and find a gun. I suspect things are going to go down hill from there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
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  6. Random 8

    Random 8 Member

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    While snowmobiling a few years ago, I had my CZ52 inside a coat pocket. German Surplus coat, designed with a special pouch for a full size handgun. My buddy buried his sled in a slush hole on a lake, and in the process of helping him get it out, my pocket filled with water. 20 miles at temps around zero later, my gun was quite literally frozen in a block of ice. Took a while after we got back to thaw, dry and oil it back up.
     
  7. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I have a few, but this is the most vanilla one.

    Back when I lived in Phoenix Arizona in the late 90s I worked at a gun store (Arizona Sportsman/Arizona Tactical). Our sales uniform was a black polo shirt and khaki 5.11 type pants with black shoes.

    We were required to be armed and most open carried in the premises just because we were also required to have our shirts tucked in.

    I was in my mid twenties and lived in a not so nice part of town due to lack of money and going to school.

    So I got off of work and stopped at a convenience store during the day and was walking to my truck. Running across the parking lot towards me were two men, one was chasing the other with a bottle. Both looked homeless. The one being chased looked like he’d already been hit or cut a few times and was actually well ahead of the other guy.

    As soon as he saw me he screamed “Officer, help me. He’s trying trying to <bleeping> kill me” and then ran towards me and then around behind me a few feet and then stopped instead of just running faster. I did not want to get involved.

    I’m guessing because of the openly carried Glock and the khaki pants and black polo that he mistook me for a cop.

    The angry guy with the bottle kept coming and since the one guy was behind me a few feet he was coming right at me.

    At that point I moved to my right a bit (I really didn’t like the one guy being behind me and I didn’t really want to be on a collision course with angry bottle carrying homeless guy) and he veered off towards me. I was in the way now I guess. I drew my Glock and ordered him to stop and he kept walking a few feet and hunched his shoulders like he was going to charge me and I started to shoot. He stopped. I told him to drop the bottle, he did. It shattered. I told him to “walk that way” (back the way he had come). He said “I’m not going that way”. I told him in the strongest possible terms that I didn’t really care, that he was going that way anyway.

    I felt like I was separating children on a playground.

    I told the other guy to go the other way (the way he was running before). He asked me if I was going to arrest him (the bottle guy). I told him that I wasn’t a cop, that I worked at a gun store and that he should probably leave before the guy tried to find him again.

    I went to the payphone (it was the 90’s, no cell) and called the police just in case someone got my plate and called it in. Neither guy was anywhere around by the time they got there and the cashier in the store backed up what I said.

    I gave a description of each guy, cop said he thought one of them was this one guy he knew. He took my name and number. Never heard anything else about it.

    Next day at work I told my supervisor I hated our uniform.
     
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  8. Kendahl

    Kendahl Member

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    Your interpretation implies that had Joe Henry reached into an empty pocket, he would have been guilty of aggravated assault if the panhandler thought he was reaching for a gun. That's disconcerting. I've been taught by competent legal professionals that someone's reaching into his pocket isn't enough to justify the conclusion that he is going for a gun unless he has previously indicated such an intention.
     
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  9. milemaker13

    milemaker13 Member

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    I just dont think simply reaching into your pocket would constitute brandishing.
    Good night folks.
     
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  10. Alte Schule

    Alte Schule Member

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    I've been following this thread for a few days now and as a LEO of thirty five years, long retired, all I can add is this. Any one that had to use, brandish, place there hand on their concealed carry firearm or inform someone that they have a firearm in order to defuse or neutralize a perceived threat to themselves or their family, friends, innocent citizens or private property has to answer only one question. Did they feel it was necessary at the time?
    If the answer is yes then who are we to disagree? I wasn't there and neither where you. You can cite state statute, penal law, city ordnance or whatever but the fact remains is that we (you) were not there and second guessing someone that used a firearm by threat, action, ruse or bluff to protect themselves, others or personal property is the decision, right or wrong, that person made.. A decision they will live with for the rest of their lives.
    Inaction to a threat might result in being robbed, assaulted or worse. If the action of the person carrying the firearm stopped the the threat that's all that counts isn't it? What you or I think how the person carrying the firearm should have done or could have done under the circumstances is pure conjecture.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That is case law in Arizona, hough now there is now a better provision for lawful justification than before, and it is not entirely inconsistent with the Common Law.

    That's pretty close.

    We have to add "imminent" and of "death or great bodily harm" to "threat", except in a handful of jurisdictions, and there is the little matter of having a basis for a reasonable belief concerning immediate necessity..

    If there are charges, the triers of fact will not have been there either.

    That decision will be "second guessed"f there are charges, and again. reasonable belief, immediate necessity, and imminent threat, usually of death or great bodily harm, will be weighed. Leave private property out of it.

    "Might" won't cut it, when it comes to justification.

    No.

    True indeed.
     
  12. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    I was approached in a gas station parking lot by a similar sort of person who was asking me if I had any change. When he got closer he reached behind himself and said he had a pistol and I needed to hand over my wallet. I reached behind myself as if going for my wallet, pulled out my Ruger .357 and said "Bet mine's bigger."
    He ran away and I called the LEO's to report the incident. Don't know if there was video or not but the parting words of the cop were "He's lucky you didn't just pull the trigger." I said I never saw a gun so I wasn't sure he was armed. Cop told me that it didn't matter, he said he had one, I could reasonably assume he did have one. Luckily another gas purchaser had overheard the whole thing and backed me up on my story.
     
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  13. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds to me like an appropriate response.

    Excellent!

    I agree, but (and this is intended for everyone reading), relying upon the word of a police officer for legal advice is not a good idea.

    That could have become very important indeed.
     
  14. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Lunchtime a couple of days before Christmas, I decide to take a quick subway trip down to Manhattan from where I was working in the Bronx to pick up a gift for my son. This is many years ago, I’m dressed in plainclothes, a suit, and the only other passenger in my car is a woman who appears destitute.

    In between stops, the door between the cars opens and two young gentlemen step inside and do a quick scan of the car. One is wearing a ski mask, one is wearing ski googles. Nice to see Bronx inhabitants dressed for winter sports.

    I guess they decided I might be the more prosperous because their eyes locked on me and they both headed diagonally towards me. As they got closer my arm brushed my suit jacket back and accidentally exposed the butt of my Chief Special. Even with their masks on I could see their eyes go wide.

    I guess they felt they had other places they’d rather be because they both turned around and exited the car at a much more rapid pace than they’d entered it. Nice to see young Bronx gentlemen getting a little exercise.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That can be very important, provided that no one ended up dead.

    When we post "this happened to me" stories, let's be very mindful of the statute of limitations.
     
  16. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    It was cold as hell. The pipes broke in a nursing home, and they sent the residents to the nursing home where my wife was Assistant Director of Nurses. After a while, she called me, "The kitchen isn't open and the girls have had nothing to eat -- can you bring us something?"

    I stopped at MacDonalds and got sacks of burgers, then delivered them to the girls. Then I got sucked into working -- they were transferring people in a bus with a side door for wheel chairs. The people being transferred were bundled up, but too old to generate any heat. They needed all the help they could get.

    When we finished, I went back to my truck -- low tire!! And I don't want to change a tire in this cold. So I went to a Red Barn gas station not far away. I bought a can of tire inflator, and there were two scuzz-balls there. I had a wallet full of ones, and I guess it looked like a lot of money.

    I came out thinking, "I need a hardstand and light, but I don't want to block the pumps." So I drove around BEHIND the station, where no one could see me, and parked under a light. I was on my hands and knees, screwing on the inflator can, when one of the scuzz-balls appeared beside me -- in a perfect position to kick my ribs in if I tried to stand.

    "How about you give me all that money?"

    I drew my .45 and said, "How about I stick this up your a$$ and blow **** out your nose?"

    The other skuzz-ball was waiting with the engine running, and the guy who tried to mug me dove into the front seat, and they peeled out onto the highway, door still open and a leg sticking out.
     
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  17. Alte Schule

    Alte Schule Member

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    Kleanbore: Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. Of course IF criminal charges or an investigation by law enforcement comes into play circumstances will change. My post wasn't intended to be legal advice on how to react to a perceived threat. Just my thoughts on sitting behind a keyboard second guessing someones act or intentions. People that read it are free to like my post or dismiss it as the ramblings of an old man. It matters not. If I was to give advice it would be that if you have a license to carry a firearm you should know a good attorney, have that attorneys phone number and exercise your right under the 5th amendment to remain silent.

    The reason I mentioned private property is that some states allow the use of reasonable force including deadly force in protecting or retrieving personal property. Nothing more than that.
     
  18. JoeHenry

    JoeHenry Member

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    I have a CCW in my home state. It is reciprocal with Oklahoma. No problem having a piece in my pocket. At any rate, weapon was never shown. But it gave me the confidence to say “I’ve got nothing for you”.
     
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  19. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I hope I didn't miss any cool "one-off CCW stories" skipping over the "brandishing, and when can I draw?" thread content.. ;)
     
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  20. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

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    Someone mentioned fanny packs. Back when I was in California, with a CCW permit, I was passing a guy wearing 5.11 pants, tan top and a fanny pack. I kept looking at the pack while grinning. He became uncomfortable, I kept grinning. He wasn't fooling anybody. :)

    My two "almost events" took place in Phoenix. Apparently, a good place to practice mindset.

    On one visit, a guy came running across an empty parking lot straight toward me when I got out of my car. Body language discouraged him from continuing.

    Another visit involved four guys in a car harassing my wife and I as we walked. I had a gun inside my jacket pocket pointed at them. Maybe they figured that out and drove off.
     
  21. jaysouth

    jaysouth Member

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    Many years ago, I was a young rookie cop in a large Eastern city. I had been in court all morning and took a break for lunch at a local saloon. Released from court for the day, I decided to drink a beer with lunch. While sitting at the bar, I bent over to light a cigarette for a new acquaintance. As I leaned over, my 1911 jumped out of the waistband of my cheap suit and went skittering across the floor. This was the late 60s and no one carried surplus 1911s because of their weight and perceived lack of accuracy and reliability. Mine was carried with a loaded mag but no round in the chamber inside my waistband. This was before gun magazines and no one ever carried a cocked and locked 1911. To be honest, the reason I was carrying a surplus 1911 was because it cost me $30 and I could not afford $70 for a model 36. I digress, my .45 skated across the floor and came to stop under the table occupied by three uniformed cops who averaged 50 years old and 250 lbs apiece. I approached the table reciting #9, #9, #9, my precinct. The cop sitting on the outside stomped down on my gun with his boot and said "show me some tin asswhole". I fumbled out my badge and he kicked the gun toward me. It landed under an occupied barstool. I retrieved the gun and stuck it in my waistband. The old cop gave me a deadly look and told me to find another bar. This one is mine.
     
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  22. Gordon
    • Contributing Member

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    I got to Saigon in January of 1968 in my unmarked fatiques and in processed in at MACHV headquarters in about two no sleep days, was given a wad of military pay certificates, a MACHV go any where pass and an MP drove me to the Capital hotel where I was to wait for my assignment. I was fluent in Vietnamese after 74 weeks of immersion at DLIWC and had told my instructors I'd look up their families in Saigon which I attempted to do. This was before Tet 68 and the city was beautiful and seemingly charming. I had been issued no weapon !!! But after finishing 6 months of counter intelligence training my dad bought me a Walther ppk .380 and I flew it over with me In a Berns Martin upside down shoulder holster with two extra mags and 100 rounds of Geco ball ammo :) . After afew days of studying Saigon maps when the cyclo cab driver started taking me toward the edge of town and not responding to my questions in Vietnamese I knew it was time to reach under my unbloused jungle fatiques and point the PPK in his face ( he driving behind me In a rickshaw kinda thing) and suddenly he could under stand my clear directions to go back to the zoo area, where I had studied the map as a destination and would be among police ect. He dropped me off and I burned him for the fare :) During the Tet offensive life changed in Old Saigon in about two weeks after arrival and I had a few incidents after that but hell I was carrying concealed the mighty .380 .:) I traded the ppk to a heliocopter pilot for an M3a1 grease gun and a bag of mags after I finally hit my first duty station at Camp Evans with the 101st where I was issued a 1911a1-ONLY ! And that was the beginning of the real adventures.:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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  23. The Evangelist Cowboy

    The Evangelist Cowboy Member

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    Is anybody going to San Antone?
    A pretty Asian girl I used to work with would go get lunch with me every once in a while, she knew what I was about and accidently bumped her hand on my pocket and asked in a flirtatious way "is that a gun in your pocket or are you happy to see me?" I responded with "it's just my .38 I carry for work, the other gun is for after work". That relationship was fun.
     
  24. Gordon
    • Contributing Member

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    Forgive the garbled text on my post, I'll clean it up when I get to my desk top.
     
  25. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    They didn't think you were a Beatles fan?
     
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