What are the one-shot stopping percentages on humans for various handgun ammo? 9mm vs .38 vs .357 etc. etc.
One-Shot Stopping Percentages?
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Sistema1927
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The only one that will really matter is the one that you encounter.
Bigger is better, more powerful is better. Handguns are a compromise.
Bigger is better, more powerful is better. Handguns are a compromise.
Flame on? (ducking...)
Don't get too wrapped up in "one-shot stop" percentages. If, for example, the .357 Magnum gets 97% (or whatever) OSSs, that should not be taken to mean that a single shot from it will stop an attacker 97 out of 100 times. Nor should you choose a loading because it has a few percent greater OSSs than another load.
Don't get too wrapped up in "one-shot stop" percentages. If, for example, the .357 Magnum gets 97% (or whatever) OSSs, that should not be taken to mean that a single shot from it will stop an attacker 97 out of 100 times. Nor should you choose a loading because it has a few percent greater OSSs than another load.
Where you hit is more important that what you hit with, a .22 short in the head is a lot better than a .50 S&W in the leg.
Also, some train of thought believe that slower bullets with little to know chance of creating an exit wound, pass more energy to the victim and have more knock down power. I.e. Many people believe the 45acp is a better bullet against a bad guy compared to the 357mag or 44mag, because it's going so much slower and all the energy is transferred to the person instead of a large percentage of the energy leaving through an exit wound. Thus, a shot in the leg, arm, chest, ass, etc... from a 45acp will put a person on their ass. Whereas a shot from a 357 or 44 mag can leave the person standing after being hit, and thus capable of shooting back.
Of course, this is just 1 train of thought. 1 that I happen to believe in. Even though my testing consisted only of shooting sandbags from a rope. The 357 mag made a definite mess, and the rest of the bag was swinging "X" amount. Shooting it with a 45acp, the bullet didn't come out and the bag was swinging a whole hell of a lot more. There is definitely something about 600-800 feet per second with a hollow point compared to twice as fast.
The theory is similar to a FMJ round nose compare to a hollow point. The FMJ can go through a person and leave them standing. A hollow point has more of a chance of leaving more energy inside of the body and pushing them back.
That's not to say that a 45acp is automatically a better round for home defense compared to a 357 or 44 mag. Most 357 and 44 are revolvers and there's definitely something to be said for that for home defense. There's also something to be said for the fact that a person has a much better chance of dying from a 357 or 44 mag. In a home defense environment, 1 shot is usually more than enough to either hit your target or scare the **** out of them and they will be running. They do not plan on coming into your house looking for a gunfight at the OK Corral. But as far as 1 shot stop in the respect of knock down power, I will stick by the heavier low velocity bullets like a 185-200g 45acp. Of course, the perfect shot placement will probably put the bad guy down immediately no matter the caliber. Later... Mike....
Of course, this is just 1 train of thought. 1 that I happen to believe in. Even though my testing consisted only of shooting sandbags from a rope. The 357 mag made a definite mess, and the rest of the bag was swinging "X" amount. Shooting it with a 45acp, the bullet didn't come out and the bag was swinging a whole hell of a lot more. There is definitely something about 600-800 feet per second with a hollow point compared to twice as fast.
The theory is similar to a FMJ round nose compare to a hollow point. The FMJ can go through a person and leave them standing. A hollow point has more of a chance of leaving more energy inside of the body and pushing them back.
That's not to say that a 45acp is automatically a better round for home defense compared to a 357 or 44 mag. Most 357 and 44 are revolvers and there's definitely something to be said for that for home defense. There's also something to be said for the fact that a person has a much better chance of dying from a 357 or 44 mag. In a home defense environment, 1 shot is usually more than enough to either hit your target or scare the **** out of them and they will be running. They do not plan on coming into your house looking for a gunfight at the OK Corral. But as far as 1 shot stop in the respect of knock down power, I will stick by the heavier low velocity bullets like a 185-200g 45acp. Of course, the perfect shot placement will probably put the bad guy down immediately no matter the caliber. Later... Mike....
Short version here, in a nice easy to read table format:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
Short version of the debate to follow? Not everyone agrees with the methodology used in arriving at the numbers.
The OSS is complete psuedoscientific BS and I say that as a guy who primarily uses .357 Magnum or .45ACP as my defensive firearms.
1. Reliability--A less than precise bang is always more useful than a totally accurate click.
1A. Shot placement--An accurate and reliable bang is better than an inaccurate and reliable bang.
2. Multiple shot placement COM--Multiple hits in the shortest amount of time is better than the reverse. Only shoot as much gun as you can keep your end up on.
3. Power--Use as much gun as you can reliably, accurately, and successfully control.
4. Ammo construction--Adequate penetration without overpenetration is primary. Expansion is gravy. A subdued flash is always better than a flamethrower.
The rest is details.
1. Reliability--A less than precise bang is always more useful than a totally accurate click.
1A. Shot placement--An accurate and reliable bang is better than an inaccurate and reliable bang.
2. Multiple shot placement COM--Multiple hits in the shortest amount of time is better than the reverse. Only shoot as much gun as you can keep your end up on.
3. Power--Use as much gun as you can reliably, accurately, and successfully control.
4. Ammo construction--Adequate penetration without overpenetration is primary. Expansion is gravy. A subdued flash is always better than a flamethrower.
The rest is details.
I have to agree with the rest and say that one shot stop percentages, especially regarding the .357 magnum, are way inaccurate.
Remember, psychology has as much to do with stopping power as the cartridge you are shooting. You ever wonder why people fall down when you shoot them? They are predisposed to falling down because everyone in movies or video games immediately falls down when they are shot.
In reality, shooting you only puts a half-inch hole through your body, and you can stay standing, move, and kill someone with several of those holes in you, at least until you fall down from blood loss or a solid hit to the central nervous system.
I think why the .357 has been so darn effective is that perceiving that you have been shot will cause you to cease action MUCH sooner than if you are unaware you've been shot. The .357 magnum is both incredibly loud and incredibly bright. I'd take a guess and venture that many an encounter has occured where a .357 was fired in low-light conditions. With a flash like that, you KNOW you've been shot. Then again, that's just speculation on my part.
Overpenetration is a myth; the majority of shots fired in gunfights miss the target completely anyway, and a bullet that has both entered and exited flesh will probably not retain enough velocity to impart serious damage to a bystander. The chances are just so slim. Worry about hitting with all your shot.
In summary: You want a bullet large enough to penetrate between 12 and 18 inches of flesh. Expansion is secondary to penetration, but there are plenty of hollowpoint rounds that will penetrate 12 or more inches and expand reliably.
This information taken from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," a document written by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and addressed to law enforcement agencies to help them in selecting a caliber for law enforcement use. Google it, it's online in PDF format if you want to take a gander at it.
Hope that helps =)
Remember, psychology has as much to do with stopping power as the cartridge you are shooting. You ever wonder why people fall down when you shoot them? They are predisposed to falling down because everyone in movies or video games immediately falls down when they are shot.
In reality, shooting you only puts a half-inch hole through your body, and you can stay standing, move, and kill someone with several of those holes in you, at least until you fall down from blood loss or a solid hit to the central nervous system.
I think why the .357 has been so darn effective is that perceiving that you have been shot will cause you to cease action MUCH sooner than if you are unaware you've been shot. The .357 magnum is both incredibly loud and incredibly bright. I'd take a guess and venture that many an encounter has occured where a .357 was fired in low-light conditions. With a flash like that, you KNOW you've been shot. Then again, that's just speculation on my part.
Overpenetration is a myth; the majority of shots fired in gunfights miss the target completely anyway, and a bullet that has both entered and exited flesh will probably not retain enough velocity to impart serious damage to a bystander. The chances are just so slim. Worry about hitting with all your shot.
In summary: You want a bullet large enough to penetrate between 12 and 18 inches of flesh. Expansion is secondary to penetration, but there are plenty of hollowpoint rounds that will penetrate 12 or more inches and expand reliably.
This information taken from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness," a document written by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and addressed to law enforcement agencies to help them in selecting a caliber for law enforcement use. Google it, it's online in PDF format if you want to take a gander at it.
Hope that helps =)
While I agree that there is some psychology involved in how a person reacts to being shot, I doubt very much that they fall down because they think they are "SUPPOSE TO", because they saw it on a movie.
I do believe however that there is something hardcore about being shot with close to 400 FOOT POUNDS of energy. You most definitely get pushed back, and probably onto your ass. While a 357 mag is going almost twice as fast, with energy closer to 500 foot pounds, if shot in all fleshy areas of the arm, leg, torso, etc... it is most definitely possible for there to be an exit would. (I don't care about the exit projectile causing other damage to others. There's not enough energy left). The point is, that the exit would and projectile is taking with it a lot of energy. Thus, the 500 foot pounds that tried to hit you may only really be hitting you will about 200-250 foot pounds at 25 feet.
In the soft part of the body, the difference between a slow moving bullet with a heavy weight, that almost never exits a body, and a much faster bullet of lighter weight that if it doesn't hit bone can definitely create an exit would, is the difference of standing still while a person pushes a sword through you. OR, you stand there and they try to push a baseball bat through you. Granted, neither the sword or the bat has that much foot pounds, but the sword can go through you, The bat really cant. Therefor any energy presented has to stay with the body. Later... Mike....
I do believe however that there is something hardcore about being shot with close to 400 FOOT POUNDS of energy. You most definitely get pushed back, and probably onto your ass. While a 357 mag is going almost twice as fast, with energy closer to 500 foot pounds, if shot in all fleshy areas of the arm, leg, torso, etc... it is most definitely possible for there to be an exit would. (I don't care about the exit projectile causing other damage to others. There's not enough energy left). The point is, that the exit would and projectile is taking with it a lot of energy. Thus, the 500 foot pounds that tried to hit you may only really be hitting you will about 200-250 foot pounds at 25 feet.
In the soft part of the body, the difference between a slow moving bullet with a heavy weight, that almost never exits a body, and a much faster bullet of lighter weight that if it doesn't hit bone can definitely create an exit would, is the difference of standing still while a person pushes a sword through you. OR, you stand there and they try to push a baseball bat through you. Granted, neither the sword or the bat has that much foot pounds, but the sword can go through you, The bat really cant. Therefor any energy presented has to stay with the body. Later... Mike....
One stop shot % = complete nonsense. Ignore it. Everything I've ever seen claiming those percentages is completely unscientific.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Don't you believe that the .45 Auto will not stop a BG faster or more consistently than a .357 Magnum. All the real street data indicates a 125 gr .357 Magnum round traveling @ 1450 fps will generate over 580 ft/lbs of energy and almost always take a human down with 1 round, and penetrate 10 to 12 inches. Don't get me wrong, the .45 Auto will penetrate just as deep and make a larger hole but the energy transfer is not close to a .357 Mag. A 230 gr .45 Auto will generate only 356 to 391 ft/lbs of energy so even if it were true that the slower bullet will transfer more of the available energy there is so much less energy to transfer.
IMO, the .45 Auto is the best semi-auto SD round but the .357 Magnum is the best all around round for stopping an attack by a human. (sorry 10mm guys! LOL)
IMO, the .45 Auto is the best semi-auto SD round but the .357 Magnum is the best all around round for stopping an attack by a human. (sorry 10mm guys! LOL)
Although I myself am skeptical of the whole predisposition to fall down theorem, the FBI says it's true, and it makes sense to me.
Anyway, bullets do not "push" anyone back. Newton's laws state that the amount the target is pushed is equal to the amount your hand is pushed when the gun recoils in your direction. If your target flies back 10 feet, you would also have to fly back 10 feet, all things being equal.
The amount of energy in foot-pounds that act on the target is irrelevant...the only things that matter are the size and depth of the wound. All things equal, it would be preferential for a bullet to create an exit wound; exit wounds mean more blood loss.
Either way, I'm definitely not saying that the .357 magnum is underpowered; although its actual stopping power is debatable, it sure does seem to have a good record.
Psychology
The psychology is VERY important, within limits. The limit being it is unpredictable, except that the perception of a devastating wound (even if there isn't one) would seem to be aided, as was said, by BIG, LOUD, FLASHING, POWERFUL guns. That immediate perception of horriblr injury is a main cause of the immediate fall-down.
And the reverse would seem to be true: a little pop may not register, no matter how ultimately grievous the wound (the exact experience of a friend when shot with a .22; only realized he was shot, AND ONLY FELL OVER, when he felt an odd liquid running down his stomach area: he saw it was blood, called the cops and then passed out, this a full minute or two after the shooting. They barely saved him.)
So, there's the wound and theirs the stop. And the two don't necessarily go together.
However, while you likely could estimate a .22 or .32 vs a .357 in this regard, that this also means that a .45 won't be as effective as a .357 in the perception of being hit is probably not possible to determine. Too much would seem to be dependent - when rounds are similarily powerful and "dramatic" - on who gets shot, exactly where, the distance, and 1000 other things variable incident to incident.
I figure shoot as big as you can, find a balance between what's most comfortable for you and what's most uncomfortable for the attacker, practice - and the rest is fate.
The psychology is VERY important, within limits. The limit being it is unpredictable, except that the perception of a devastating wound (even if there isn't one) would seem to be aided, as was said, by BIG, LOUD, FLASHING, POWERFUL guns. That immediate perception of horriblr injury is a main cause of the immediate fall-down.
And the reverse would seem to be true: a little pop may not register, no matter how ultimately grievous the wound (the exact experience of a friend when shot with a .22; only realized he was shot, AND ONLY FELL OVER, when he felt an odd liquid running down his stomach area: he saw it was blood, called the cops and then passed out, this a full minute or two after the shooting. They barely saved him.)
So, there's the wound and theirs the stop. And the two don't necessarily go together.
However, while you likely could estimate a .22 or .32 vs a .357 in this regard, that this also means that a .45 won't be as effective as a .357 in the perception of being hit is probably not possible to determine. Too much would seem to be dependent - when rounds are similarily powerful and "dramatic" - on who gets shot, exactly where, the distance, and 1000 other things variable incident to incident.
I figure shoot as big as you can, find a balance between what's most comfortable for you and what's most uncomfortable for the attacker, practice - and the rest is fate.
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General rule of thumb - when the decision to use deadly force is reached, engage the target COM until it no longer presents a threat. Let the mortician figure out which round was the one that was effective.
Pk
Pk
I just quoted Massad Ayoob on the thread "158 grain .357 magnum for 2 legged defense" that might be of interest to you.
Anybody who thinks a bullet is going to "knock somebody on their ass" needs to study physics.
Later on tonight, I'll try to post the video of the guy who allows his partner to shoot him with an FAL from a distance of about 6 feet. He takes a CoM shot on a trauma plate, while balancing on one foot, and maintains his footing. That's a 7.62NATO round, slightly (!) more powerful than any .357 Magnum.
They tested the "knock back" theory of Mythbusters one episode and hung a pig carcass from a steel frame by a chain. They tried all different pistol and rifle rounds and none hardly made the chain swing at all. From a 9mm, .357 mag to a .45 ACP. They also tried a high power rifle ( not sure if it was .308 or 30-06) and the only thing that knocked the pig back at all was a shotgun with a slug for a round.
Personally, I don't care if the BG who I may possibly have to shoot some day, God forbid, falls down because he thinks he's supposed to or because he is incapacitated by the bullet wound. All I care about is stopping him from injuring or killing me or someone who I'm responsible for, and I think it has been pretty well established that the more powerful the round the more effective it will be at doing that, given a hit in the same location of course.
I have carried everything from a little Beretta .22 semiauto (when I didn't know any better) to a .380, to a .45acp 1911 to a 2-1/2" .357 revolver which is my current carry gun. I am fairlly confident that with good self defense ammo and a good hit, either a .45acp, .45 Long Colt, .44 Special, .40S&W, 10mm, .357 magnum, or .357 SIG will do about as much in the way of stopping a BG opponent as any handgun round that is at all practical for concealed carry. I don't know if the OSS percentages are an accurate and scientific way to rate a defense cartridge or not, but it seems logical to me that the cartridges which have been the most effective in the police and other verifiable shootings that the ratings are based on would be the most likely to be effective for me if all other factors are equal. I don't know if the 96% rating means anything or not, but if my .357 magnum Hydroshok doesn't put a BG down with a good hit I seriously doubt that a good hit with any other handgun round would put him down either.
I have carried everything from a little Beretta .22 semiauto (when I didn't know any better) to a .380, to a .45acp 1911 to a 2-1/2" .357 revolver which is my current carry gun. I am fairlly confident that with good self defense ammo and a good hit, either a .45acp, .45 Long Colt, .44 Special, .40S&W, 10mm, .357 magnum, or .357 SIG will do about as much in the way of stopping a BG opponent as any handgun round that is at all practical for concealed carry. I don't know if the OSS percentages are an accurate and scientific way to rate a defense cartridge or not, but it seems logical to me that the cartridges which have been the most effective in the police and other verifiable shootings that the ratings are based on would be the most likely to be effective for me if all other factors are equal. I don't know if the 96% rating means anything or not, but if my .357 magnum Hydroshok doesn't put a BG down with a good hit I seriously doubt that a good hit with any other handgun round would put him down either.
I admit that I have never been shot, so I don't know first hand the impact of a bullet. I also know that recoil from a pistol is not the same energy dispersion as with a bullet hitting a target, expanding, and coming to rest. I spent 21 years in the military and saw a couple of people shot with a handgun. Can't say why, but I do know they didn't just stand there. Also, I have read accounts from sheriffs and state troopers that say people's bodies do react, by moving, to being shot. Maybe it is the psychological affect as others have mentioned. Maybe it's the shock to the CNS sort of like flinching when touching a hot iron or pricking your finger. Here's a link of a first hand account of a person who was shot with a 22 mag point blank. Maybe he's FOS. Hopefully, I will never have to be shot point blank to find out. In my 21 years in the military I was shot at, but fortunately never hit. Anyway, here's a link. Later... Mike....
http://www.healthbolt.net/2007/04/17/whats-it-feel-like-to-get-shot-with-a-gun/
http://www.healthbolt.net/2007/04/17/whats-it-feel-like-to-get-shot-with-a-gun/
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
Stop worrying abour one stop percentages, and learn to shoot, move and cover.
Worry about shot placment and consistancy
Worry about shot placment and consistancy
I have this pet theory about a 300 grain HB bullet in .44 special or .45 Colt caliber. This bullet weight is about 45 to 55 grains over normal gross weight in those handgun calibers.
Let us dwell on the .45 Colt caliber a 300 grain bullet as it is more apt to work as the .44 special.
6.8 grains of Unique powder will push this large bullet to 690 fps velocity. As will 12.5 grains of 2400 powder will skip along at 735 fps velocity.
Now this slow moving slug should have awsome impact on a BG, surely stopping him in his tracks from the weight alone dragging him down.
Have based this pet theory on the Brits oversized bullet in their old WW-2 load on the .38 S&W cartridge of 200 grain weight bullet...this bullet being over the norm for that ennemic caliber by about 50 to 60 grains.
Yet, the Brit load was supposed to be a real tiger of a man stopper???
Jim
Let us dwell on the .45 Colt caliber a 300 grain bullet as it is more apt to work as the .44 special.
6.8 grains of Unique powder will push this large bullet to 690 fps velocity. As will 12.5 grains of 2400 powder will skip along at 735 fps velocity.
Now this slow moving slug should have awsome impact on a BG, surely stopping him in his tracks from the weight alone dragging him down.
Have based this pet theory on the Brits oversized bullet in their old WW-2 load on the .38 S&W cartridge of 200 grain weight bullet...this bullet being over the norm for that ennemic caliber by about 50 to 60 grains.
Yet, the Brit load was supposed to be a real tiger of a man stopper???
Jim
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