.38 Special vs. .44 Special
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That opinion is often offered in discussions such as these. The problem is that differences in rate of controlled fire can be very important. If the attacker is moving at fifteen feet per second and is turning and is bobbing and weaving, a very small difference in the time interval between shots can make the difference in whether anything critical is struck.
Power? At some point, more power means nothing, if the target is a human body.
Diameter? Yes, a bigger role may be a little better, but more holes contribute a lot more to the likelihood of damaging something critical.
That doesn't change my opinion. There are just as many unknowns in your scenario as any other. Saying "differences in rate of controlled fire can be very important" isn't a solution, it's just an observation that doesn't move you any closer to a decision. You'll never know how fast the target will be moving, nor will you likely time yourself and build a matrix of "differences in controlled fire speeds vs target speed" by caliber. Even if you did, you'd still be back at square one of "we have no idea what the scenario will be." This is a process of compromises, every decision you make is based on them in this game. At some point you need to make a decision, and I stated mine.
Additionally, you'll note the phrase "relatively quickly." This implies that you decide what's quick enough for you.
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And just whats it that makes you believe that a handgun bullet that has more "power" will result in a quicker stop than one that has sufficient power?
No, you will never know just how fast the target will be moving, but it would be prudent that he will move at a about a velocity that is typical for an an average adult. If the generally accepted five yards per second number (ref. Tueller) is not convincing, one can assess that via simulation and via FoF exercises. Both will show the importance of a high rate of controlled fire, and either can be used to measure the comparative effectiveness of different rates of fire.
That will certainly move one "closer to a decision".
One can get a pretty good idea of the differences between rates of controlled fire among firearms by observing a number of trainees participating in El Presidente drills against steel plates with different firearms fora couple of days, and noting the audible results. The first time I did that, I did not need a timer to understand that my choice of a .45 ACP had created a significant handicap.
I learned very quickly that a service-sized 9 was better than a .40, which was in turn better than my .45.
Of course, I had to get over my long-held belief in the advantage of having more "knock down power."
RealGun
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But in terms of revolvers here, you don't spray and pray. Instead of more rounds to pester a target, one might choose an especially effective one, shot with more deliberation.
Show me where I wrote about "quicker stops". Quote me when you find it.
I explicitly state in my post that even with the advantage of a larger caliber one is not guaranteed a quick stop. A larger caliber is wider, and therefore more likely to intersect something vital, which is why I prefer it.
I prefer a larger and more powerful cartridge because i may not be shooting a guy in a tee shirt. It may be winter, he may have a leather jacket and layering underneath. The more powerful cartridge gives me a higher level of comfort that it will get to a place where it can begin penetrating.
An attacking violent criminal attacker is not a two diminutional stationary target facing a shooter, providing time for "more deliberation", and allowing the use of sights to hit the target.
And the idea that one "especially effective" round will serve is pretty much the stuff of screen fiction.
I recommend Grant Cunningham's Defensive Revolver Fundamentals for a good, comprehensive discussion of what constitutes realistic training and what does not.
Enough poppycock...answer the OP's question....38 or .44 spcl? Make any assumption you want about target speed...you have six rounds. Which is it?
As I said in my original post...I'll take the larger one I can shoot relatively quickly...and you have said nothing to merit changing that opinion. You determine what's relatively quick for you, and I'll determine what's relatively quick for me.
You said nothing that I recall about quicker stops. It is just that the quicker stop is extremely important to survival in a violent criminal attack. In a realistic FoF exercise. the concealed carrier will be doing well to draw and shoot timely. Then there is the time needed for the attacker to be incapacitated. The less, the better. And thatudiall requires more hits.
Yes, a larger bullet may have a slight advantage in terms of likelihood of hitting something vital, but nowhere near as much of an advantage as having more shots on target. Simple, geometry, statistics, and anatomy.
The point on penetration is well taken. My premium 9mm carry loads meet the FBI protocols. Some years ago, 9mm JHP loads fell short in terms of penetration. I do not consider the .380 to have sufficient terminal performance.
Can you place more rounds into a moving target in one second with a .38, or with a .44 of the same size?
Which for me? .38 if I have only those choices, but most informed people (trainers and LEO) select something else today, and have for some years. My .38 is reserved for backup. I have no reason whatsoever to rely upon it for primary carry.
I would agree with much of that, but asking a pistol for "quick stops" in any reasonable carry caliber is a stretch. They just aren't great at killing people quickly. Pistols that are good at "quick stops" are terrible for carry and even worse for quick follow up shots (think 454 casull or .460 S&W mag). Which leads me back to my original post again, this is all just a series of compromises.
I expect there will be scenarios where even multiple hits with a good caliber will leave you having to fight hand to hand with an attacker. Think of the Miami shootout, those guys were stone sober and had the stew shot out of them and continued to fight.
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Kendal Black
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Where would you say is the lower boundary on bullet diameter? By that I mean one smaller than which you will not, willingly, use for defense. We know that the .25 ACP with FMJ bullets penetrates pretty well, at least in the less watery loadings--Fiocchi is pretty good. .25 x 12 cylinder is .59, about half of what you get with a .38.
Perhaps the advantage of a larger wound is it is more likely to touch a vital structure?
I would not say my post was tongue in cheek so much as intentionally conservative in its conclusions.
Going back to the OP's question--"one shot from each"--yes, a one shot stop is most unlikely with any handgun
But a quick stop is extremely important, and that's what makes fast multiple shots important.
Killing is not the objective.
Yes, one must compromise. The most concealable firearms will have less capacity and will be harder to use effectively.
And yes, the guy just might keep coming. There are no guarantees. Only risk assessments.
peacebutready
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@Lone Star: Thanks for your informative and generous post.
A good bonded JHP bullet of .355-.357 inch diameter (with adequate penetration) seems to be as small as police departments choose these days. That's where I draw the line.
Sometime back when the ammunition was less effective, that might have been on the low side. The.38 Special was ubiquitous, but there were people such as Jelly Bryce and Elmer Keith who preferred something larger.
Keith gave us the .41 Remington. Very few departments stuck with it. Goes back to gspn's comments on compromise.
Bullet technology is a whole lot different now, and the study of handgun wounding effectiveness is more advanced.
peacebutready
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It would be interesting to know exactly where those 4 bullets hit and what kind they were. I wouldn't be surprised if they were 185gr hollowpoints that didn't penetrate sufficiently.
The only reference I can find is from an article posted on another site. It was written by Kimberly Vetter of The Advocate on 3/11/06. That's a local newspaper. Link to other site if interested: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1692
I tried to find the actual article on the website of The Advocate but it didn't come up quick and I've not got enough interest to pursue it further. Below is a quote that pertains to your question:
"Five serial shots from witness Perry Stephens, 56, caused major injuries and ultimately killed Temple, the report says.
Two of those shots hit Temple's left lung. Two more perforated his back chest skin and his upper back and lower neck. One shot hit Temple's brain, the report says.
The brain shot killed him Moreau said. The other shots, eventually, probably would have killed him.
A toxicology report released earlier this week by the Coroner's Office shows that Temple had no drugs or alcohol in his system at the time of the incident."
It doesn't give us the full picture, but two rounds penetrated his lungs and he kept fighting. Two lung wounds would have eventually taken the air out of him as that left lung filled up with blood, but it goes to show that a sober guy, filled with nothing but rage, may not respond at all to being shot. Adrenaline and rage are powerful things.
I hurt my shoulder doing dumbbell fly's last week, bad enough that I couldn't do chest for a week, much less roll around on the ground fighting.
My apologies to the OP for going off topic.
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Here's the conundrum: If the hit is not to the CNS or another vital area (heart, major vessel) then .38 vs. .44 probably doesn't matter with a determined attacker. If the hit is to the CNS, then .38 vs .44 doesn't matter. If the hit is to the heart or major vessel (aorta, vena cava), would it matter?
RealGun
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To conclude then that we just need 22s is not a nonsequitur.
Kendal Black
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Good place to draw the line. .38 Special with a good bullet is as small as I go, currently.
Wound volume is important, for that is the parameter that caliber affects. If it didn't matter at all, we would all use light-recoiling smallbore arms, but general experience says that is not a good idea.
If nothing else, a wider wound hits more blood vessels than a narrower one, and if it is a matter of a near miss of a vital structure such as a big artery, a wider bullet might make a hairsbreadth miss into a fatal hit. (Think of a larger diameter bullet clipping the x ring where a .22 would merely be a 10.)
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The experts speak of the CNS. We retold that an attacker can keep functioning for a very long 15 seconds if the heart is destroyed.
I'm not qualified to contradict either statement, but consider this: training for defending oneself with a blade weapon focuses on the slashing of key tendons--those that would hold a weapon or enable ether attacker to stand.
It would seem to me that the destruction of a key tendon, a particular motor nerve, or perhaps a joint by a bullet could effectively disable an attacker quickly.
Of course that would be a chance hit--one would not attempt of shoot at such areas. But as a lay person, I would think that a random hit of that kind could do the job.
Crowman
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Simple answer:
Big holes leak more. Multiple big holes let out even more.
Big holes leak more. Multiple big holes let out even more.
"Leakage" can kill, if not treated timely, but I would not recommend depending on it for protection.
gun_with_a_view
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Although it is not mentioned here, it is my understanding from news reports post-incident the good Samaritan was hounded unmercifully for over two years by the district attorney's office before being cleared of any wrongdoing. Where police have
started something, it might behoove one not to intervene on anyone's behalf, but let the police rely on themselves. Backup could not have been far way in this case, Baton Rouge is not that big a place. Louisiana law mandates you assist an officer if they so request. But apparently that is not an absolute defense before trial.
http://www.wafb.com/story/4527526/bystander-fired-deadly-shot-not-officer
There can be much talk about bullet diameter and knock down power. We all know that a bullet does not knock down a person. From the damage I've personally seen, and both bullets traveling at the same velocity, a 44 Special is much better at stopping a treat than a 38 Special. Say again how this is not so?
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