MUCH more dependent upon the location and the angle of entry than on the diameter of the bullet.
.38 Special vs. .44 Special
- Thread starter peacebutready
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Is So...big .44 gets my vote so thats gotta be right
RealGun
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Sounds like the logic is that given two cartridges that are individually effective in potential, there is no inherent difference. I find that counter intuitive and tedious. At a given velocity, I will say bigger is better, within the limits of round count and practical size of the gun.
"MUCH more dependent upon the location and the angle of entry than on the diameter of the bullet."
Well sure you have to actually hit the target too. These discussions about bullet placement are a weak issue and can not be taken as absolute. In that thinking, we could all use a 22 LR because a direct hit to the head will stop a threat. I think the caliber debate goes beyond an exact hit in a very small area. Even the Marine snipers are using center of mass as a much better target area. So, in that context you need a caliber and cartridge capable of inflicting a certain amount of damage. Hence my conclusion that the 44 Special is better "as a cartridge" than the 38 Special. Now if you don't hit the target what is the point of this?
Well sure you have to actually hit the target too. These discussions about bullet placement are a weak issue and can not be taken as absolute. In that thinking, we could all use a 22 LR because a direct hit to the head will stop a threat. I think the caliber debate goes beyond an exact hit in a very small area. Even the Marine snipers are using center of mass as a much better target area. So, in that context you need a caliber and cartridge capable of inflicting a certain amount of damage. Hence my conclusion that the 44 Special is better "as a cartridge" than the 38 Special. Now if you don't hit the target what is the point of this?
gun_with_a_view
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The guy was a boxer, which may account for his endurance under stress and the fact the cop was losing and needed help.
-OP refresher (for those simply saying the .44 is better with nothing else added).
Of course the bigger bullet is "more" effective. The question was "how much more?" A trivial amount, a decent amount, a large amount? ...and the real hard part, back up your answer (good luck with that part).
So, since shot placement is the same and all-else equal; How much more effective is a .38 Spl (not a .22) semi-wadcutter to the heart vs. a .44 Spl semi-wadcutter to the heart?
How much more effective is a .38 Spl semi-wadcutter to the lung vs. a .44 Spl semi-wadcutter to the lung?
How much more effective is a .38 Spl semi-wadcutter to the brain vs. a .44 Spl semi-wadcutter to the brain?
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"Hit the target"? "Use center mass as a much better target area"? Sure--yes on both counts.
But within the body. somethings matter a lot, and some things matter very little. Whether they are damaged depends upon penetration, the location of the entry wounds, and the angle of entry. Yes, it will depend upon "an exact hit in a very small area". With a charging assailant, shots that "hit the target" (center mass) may or may not damage anything internal that really counts. It will be largely a matter of chance, and more shots hitting the target will increase that chance. There will likely be very little time in which to do it.
peacebutready
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Another way to ask is how many percent more effective. A while back a known or somewhat known trainer stated he believed one .45 round is about 10% more effective than one 9mm round fired.
C-grunt
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From what Ive seen investigating shootings and researched from ballistic experts and doctors.... you either have an effective bullet or you don't. Shot placement and penetration matter much much more than a slight increase in bullet size. Ive had trauma doctors tell me they can't tell what caliber bullet was used from the wounds (when dealing with duty rounds). Ive seen people survive .40 and .45 hollowpoints (mostly 180 and 230 grain HSTs) to the torso and Ive seen people quickly succumb to 9mm, 38, and 380 ball rounds.
Basically from what Ive seen and gathered the main duty weapons (38, 9mm, 357, 40, 45) all perform so closely that any difference is negligible in a defensive use. Now for hunting with hard cast bullets, that's a different situation.
Basically from what Ive seen and gathered the main duty weapons (38, 9mm, 357, 40, 45) all perform so closely that any difference is negligible in a defensive use. Now for hunting with hard cast bullets, that's a different situation.
peacebutready
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Survive the 180 and 230 grain HSTs where the POI was or usually was the upper or lower thorax?
C-grunt
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Several of both. Hell I have a buddy that shot an armed robbery suspect through the temple with his 45. Entered the left temple and exited just under his right ear. I was talking with that guy a week later in the hospital waiting for him to get discharged so we could book him. He should have died, but he didn't. I've seen people die from wounds they should have survived. My training officer shot a guy in the side with his 45 and double lunged him. Dude dropped dead where he was standing. Ive also been on a shooting where another officer shot a guy through the side with his 45. Again hit both lungs. But then we had to chase that guy around an apartment complex and physically fight him to get him into handcuffs. They then walked him to the ambulance where he went unconscious. I believe he lived too. Ive seen 9mm and 38 drop people (with chest shots) like they were hit by lightning. There is no rhyme or reason except for shot placement and good penetration.
The human body is amazingly resilient and horribly fragile at the same time. That's the reason why you can't really say rounds in this category are better than one another. They are too similar and the human body is too complicated.
Is a 44 Special bullet going to cause more damage than a 38 Special bullet? Yeah probably. Is that extra damage going to make a difference? Probably not.
I sold my Glock 21 and now carry a Glock 17 ever since my department reauthorized them a few years ago. A lot of the "tactical" (I hate using that term) guys on SWAT and what not have done so as well. Because from their experience and mine, we would rather trade off a small increase in wounding potential for a gun that holds more ammo and is easier to shoot.
RealGun
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And would a 22LR be less effective with those hits?
Again, that wasn't the OP, but yes. Less penetration (depending on angle or ribs, might not make it), way smaller wound so the lung hit might have no effect for quite awhile, the heart might keep beating, bullet has better chance to deflect off the skull, might only damage a non-critical area of the brain etc.
My point is that .38 vs. .44, they are both good enough that with same placement they will both be effective (or have near the same level of effect either way). The .44 a little more so, but not in a way that can be scientifically measured (on a person, actual results as opposed to gel) and perhaps not in a way that would make a real-world difference.
.22 vs a more effective cartridge, this is so extreme we run into lots of issues. Small, easily deflected bullet that either won't penetrate deep enough or expand well. A round nose in soft tissue basically makes an ice-pick style wound. Absolutely "lethal" potential if placed properly, but way less of a chance of a quick stop. Statistically handgun wounds are survivable something like 8/10 times and most of those are better than a .22.
peacebutready
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Yes. Wounds to the extremities are included in this figure. Canceling out extremity wounds would obviously show a different percentage of those surviving.
peacebutready
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Excellent post. Thanks.
It's weird the person shot in the head like that survived. The bullet trajectory is odd as well. About the shootings where the perp was hit by .45s on the side, I'm wondering whether the ammo was the same or different. IMO, a lot of hollow point ammo out there doesn't penetrate enough.
Long time ago I read a true crime book where a victim was shot point blank by the perp with a .25. The victim was out like a light. In another book, a shooting victim, who was some mob guy that was shot a few times in the head by a perp with a small caliber pistol. The victim lived and was arrested a good period of time later. I saw his mug shot. There was a bump in his forehead that jutted out (if that's the correct term) where the bullet obviously didn't exit. Also, his eyes were looking in two different directions. I remember wondering how many i.q. points he lost from that attempt on his life.
C-grunt
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Both shots from the stories were with Federal HST 230 grain +P. The one my training officer did the bullet was found under the skin on the off side. The second one at the apartment complex the bullet exited and lodged in the wall. Both had plenty of penetration.
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