One to Watch

[Jeff White]

We burn a lot of electrons discussing when it's appropriate to draw here and in Legal. There is an interesting case playing out in Las Vegas right now where an occupant of a pick up drew on a group of motorcyclists at a red light. There was no violence, in fact both parties called 911 on each other, but no arrests were made and no charges have been filed...yet.

http://news.yahoo.com/driver-pulled-gun-bikers-says-210800893.html

Driver Who Pulled Gun on Bikers Says He Felt Threatened: 'I Was Surrounded'
By Inside Edition
23 hours ago

The driver of a pick-up truck who pulled a gun on a biker says he felt threatened after being surrounded by the motorcyclist and his friends on wheels.

Driver Ricky Thornton spoke to INSIDE EDITION about what he was thinking during the incident at an intersection outside Las Vegas.

“I don't know if that man has a gun on his hip or not and I’m not taking any chances,” he said.

In footage posted on YouTube by the biker, some of the group can be seen doing stunts.

“They were on both sides of my vehicle, and behind me, and I didn't really feel comfortable with it,” Thornton said.

Thornton told IE he was reminded of the videotaped 2013 confrontation in New York City, when a fearful driver and his family were surrounded by bikers on the West Side Highway.

The scared driver hit the gas to get away and was later beaten by some of the bikers.

Thornton's showdown with the biker happened at a red light when a man with the camera knocked on the window on the passenger door.

Thornton said the knock startled him. “I pulled out my gun and put it up. I've been trained to use it. I have a concealed handgun license. I have seen too many horror stories about stuff like this going on," he said.

He said he didn’t overreact because “half the motorcyclists here in Vegas are wearing guns on their hip.”

Both men filed police reports against each other, and cops are now investigating the incident.

Link to the Inside Edition Video: http://bcove.me/rgj953jm

Looks like Aggravated Assault to me. Of course you can't tell a lot from a news report.

 

[ACP]

Very similar to Kleanbore's example below of the woman loading packages in a Wal Mart parking lot, being startled by a question, and drawing her CCW.

These are legal, responsible gun owners (supposedly) doing these stupid, illegal things. They are giving many other gun owners a very bad reputation. It's horrible for 2A public relations.

 

[strambo]

That is a good case to keep an eye on. The devil is in the details of exactly what the bikers were doing and what a "reasonable person" would think, feel, and do given the situation and the knowledge of the similar NYC incident possessed by the driver.

I would venture to say if the bikers were following the rules of the road, the driver would not have felt threatened and none of this would have happened.

The driver's emotion doesn't help, I personally think he over-reacted and a hand on the gun out of sight at most would have been better. We'll see what the charges are, if any.

 

[Branko_D]

Looks like a case of mutual stupid, on the other hand pulling out the gun then and there has over-reacted and will probably face some consequences.

The example he reffered to where a man was beaten; sure, the moment a group of guys are trying to break in the vehicle and presumably kill you or injure you, then shooting is necessary to protect yourself, and is legally justified. While they're just driving around or when one of them knocks on the window to say something - it's not necessary and hence it is not legal.

 

[AOK]

Yeah, looks like he's really trained as he states. Roles window down. Gets in argument. Displays gun. Finger on trigger. Just focusing on the guy on the side of his vehicle and not aware of what it sounds as he claims other bikers around him. Gun bouncing up and down. Good lord.

If a pack of people (or in this case bikers) begin to "fan out" and are focused on me, I could see this being a sign of a possible attack and you could possibly articulate that. Getting your hand on the gun but keeping it out of sight is not a bad tactic. Obviously it just depends on the situation which I can't really comment what led up to the videoed confrontation. Based on his interview he doesn't really articulate a good reason to do what he did IMHO.

I was literally just listening to some of Claude Werner's CD "Serious Mistakes Gunowners Make" and it includes brandishing as one of the common mistakes and mentions how being startled is not what most would consider a reasonable reason to draw your firearm. One of the examples he brings up was the startle by the lady putting her groceries away as ACP mentions.

Again, I don't know what led up to the videoed confrontation or Nevada laws but based on the little I've seen he could be looking at a minimum of some lawyer fees and multiple visits to court to defend himself. As Mr. White mentions, Aggravated Assault charges certainly possible.

 

[Shovelhead]

IIRC, The NY car driver mentioned in the story tried to accelerate away from the pack and ran over a couple of bikers. He was chased and beaten by some of the other bikers.
A bit of a different scenario.

 

[Officers'Wife]

OK, I am not familiar with the culture of Las Vegas and need a bit of information. Is it customary knock on windows while a vehicle is stopped at a red light? I know the club we belong to "advises" we avoid even looking in cars when we are in larger cities such as Lafayette or Indianapolis.

 

[JohnKSa]

Is it customary knock on windows while a vehicle is stopped at a red light?

I seriously doubt it. The bike driver was being quite rude, and his behavior might even be considered to be mildly alarming, but I don't believe it was sufficient justification for displaying a firearm.

The NY car driver mentioned in the story tried to accelerate away from the pack and ran over a couple of bikers. A bit of a different scenario.

There was an initial minor incident (one of more than 200 reported by other persons that day during the motorcycle rally) which culminated in a biker brake-checking the driver who bumped him in the process of the brake-check. Based on the fact that the driver has not been charged and the incident was videotaped, it would seem that the bump was not intentional. At that point the bikers boxed the driver in and attempted to break into his car which contained his wife and baby daughter as well as himself. Rather than allow that to happen, the driver accelerated away from the scene, running over whatever was in his path. One biker was run over and seriously injured in the process. The bikers followed the driver and when he ran into traffic and could not escape, they broke into his vehicle, beat him and tried to pull his wife from the vehicle. Eleven bikers have been indicted.

It is very different in one respect. The point at which the driver used deadly force was after he was boxed in and the bikers were attempting to break into his vehicle. That case warranted the use of deadly force to escape an attack by superior numbers. This case did not warrant the use of deadly force, or any force at all, for that matter.

It is very similar in another respect. It started with a minor incident which should have been ignored.

 

[giggitygiggity]

I've just got to shake my head in disdain that this is what this country has been reduced to. In the days of the Wild West, brandishing firearms, pistol-whipping, and shooting others who committed malfeasances was commonplace. Now that the Second Amendment has been all but stripped of its original design, people have to feel as though they can never use their gun in self defense until physical harm befalls them. We talk about the "reasonable person." I think "reasonable person" often gets misconstrued as "politically-correct person."

Bikers have a reputation as being a bunch of criminal thugs. The reputation isn't true for most bikers, but shows like "Devil's Ride" and "Sons of Anarchy" paired with atrocities committed by the Hell's Angels and other gangs certainly does not promote a good image of biker culture.

What I would like to see is an America in which the reasonable person would side with the guy who drew his sidearm on the biker. I'm surrounded, a biker knocks on my window (my personal property), I know that there are bikers who take pride in being outlaws and truffle-makers, so I draw my gun. He didn't shoot. What if it had been a knife and he pulled a knife, would we be having this discussion?

I'm of the belief that your right to throw your fist stops at the tip of my nose. The proverbial "tip of the nose" in this case was the knocking on the window of the driver.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I've just got to shake my head in disdain that this is what this country has been reduced to. In the days of the Wild West, brandishing firearms, pistol-whipping, and shooting others who committed malfeasances was commonplace....

Do you have any actual evidence to support that?

What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world are not the same. People believe all sorts of things that aren't true. Believing something that is not true doesn't change reality, nor does it help one understand and deal with reality. Reality will continue without regard to your beliefs. Some people understand that reality is what goes on in the world. Others mistakenly confuse what goes on in their heads for reality.

In any case, it appears that you need some education in the laws regarding the use of force in real life in the real world. And that's laid out here: An Overview of Basic "Use of Force" Law.

...What I would like to see is an America...

Do you think that actually matters to anyone?

Of course you're free to act on your beliefs. What happens to you is not our problem. However, folks do need to understand that bad decisions can put you in prison even when they didn't contribute to your survival.

1. Jerome Ersland successfully used lethal force to defend against an armed robbery. He stopped the threat and was no longer at risk, but then he went too far. He is now serving a life sentence in an Oklahoma prison for first degree murder.
   
   
2. Byron Smith in Minnesota killed two teenagers who broke into his house. He went much further than necessary to defend himself. He is now serving a life sentence for murder. And yes, Minnesota has a Castle Doctrine law.
   
   
3. In Montana, which also has a Castle Doctrine law, Markus Kaarma claimed he was justified in killing an intruder. The jury disagreed. Kaarma was sentenced to 70 years in prison for the killing.

In each of these cases, someone did something which wasn't reasonably necessary for his survival, but which he apparently thought could be legally justified. And in each case his errors cost him dearly.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I'm of the belief that your right to throw your fist stops at the tip of my nose. The proverbial "tip of the nose" in this case was the knocking on the window of the driver.

Not really. Knocking on the window of your occupied vehicle is not a threat, and it would take a idiotic jury to believe it was.

It could have been an extremely benign reason, like to inform a fellow motorist he has a blown tail light.

The driver of the truck over reacted and sounds a bit paranoid. I've been surrounded in traffic. It's not a big deal, although it used to tingle my PTSD, I've gotten over it.

After watching the helmet cam video, I'm certain the driver of the truck is an idiot who over reacted.

 

[Speedo66]

I'm surrounded, a biker knocks on my window (my personal property), I know that there are bikers who take pride in being outlaws and truffle-makers, so I draw my gun.

What wrong with truffle makers? I like good chocolates.

Where I served, a possible charge might have been reckless endangerment, as no assault occurred.

 

[DeepSouth]

The way the passenger was jumping around in the seat he was probably more likely to shoot him than the guy on the bike.

So many things can be completely prevented by simply keeping calm and not being stupid.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Knocking on the window of your occupied vehicle is not a threat, and it would take a idiotic jury to believe it was.

It could have been an extremely benign reason, like to inform a fellow motorist he has a blown tail light.

I haven't yet watched the video, this reply is only to the issue of whether knocking on a car window is normal or threatening. I agree with Officer's Wife on this, it probably depends on where you are. In Los Angeles if you have a blown taillight and someone wants to tell you about it, they wave at you from a distance to get your attention, then point at the taillight and yell that it's out. If anybody knocked on the window of my car I would consider that very threatening, to me that would feel like my space had been violated.

 

[ACP]

"If anybody knocked on the window of my car I would consider that very threatening, to me that would feel like my space had been violated."

And then... what? Draw on them?

I hope you enjoy prison, and losing your 2nd Amendment rights forever after that.

 

[old lady new shooter]

"If anybody knocked on the window of my car I would consider that very threatening, to me that would feel like my space had been violated."

And then... what? Draw on them?

I hope you enjoy prison, and losing your 2nd Amendment rights forever after that.

I did not express an opinion as to what action I would take.

Being that regular people here aren't issued concealed carry permits, drawing on the person would not be an option even if I thought that would be appropriate.

If I were not boxed in by traffic I would probably speed away. If I were boxed in I would probably motion to the person to go away and if they didn't leave immediately I would lean on the horn to at least attract attention from other motorists.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Now that I watched the video, my thoughts are:

1. Yes, all those motorcycles driving, um, discourteously, already feels somewhat threatening.

2. If I were the driver of the red truck I would first notify 911 that there were a bunch of bikers driving in a rowdy and threatening manner.

3. Then, if possible I would turn off that road and take an alternate route to my planned destination.

4. If there were no way to leave the road I would be careful to drive cautiously staying in the left lane while keeping alert and continuing to look for the next available exit.

5. If any of the bikers actually approached my vehicle I would try to speed away, possibly while leaning on the horn. NO WAY would I roll down the window, nor would I engage with them beyond possibly waving at them to go away.

IMO this video is a great demonstration of monkey brain behavior.

 

[strambo]

2. If I were the driver of the red truck I would first notify 911 that there were a bunch of bikers driving in a rowdy and threatening manner.

This is a great point, one of the passengers could have called and the truck driver gets to be the "victim" 1st on the police report. He also wouldn't have felt as threatened knowing police were on the way.

 

[mdThanatos]

If that occurred where in my neck of the woods, the driver of the truck would be facing charges of misdemeanor Menacing, for pointing the gun at the motorcyclist. There were other avenues that could have been taken, as mentioned above calling the police. I feel that there was an overreaction in this situation.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by giggitygiggity:

I've just got to shake my head in disdain that this is what this country has been reduced to. In the days of the Wild West, brandishing firearms, pistol-whipping, and shooting others who committed malfeasances was commonplace.

I would not draw any conclusions about 'the days of the Wild West" from screen fiction.

Shooting someone who "committed malfeasances" was a good way to end up at the end of a rope.

Now that the Second Amendment has been all but stripped of its original design, ...

The Second Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with Use of Force law.

...people have to feel as though they can never use their gun in self defense until physical harm befalls them.

I do not know where you got that idea. There are the matters of imminent threat of death or serious harm, which can justify the use of deadly force, provided that the defender had not initiated the conflict or entered into mutual combat.

Bikers have a reputation as being a bunch of criminal thugs. The reputation isn't true for most bikers, but shows like "Devil's Ride" and "Sons of Anarchy" paired with atrocities committed by the Hell's Angels and other gangs certainly does not promote a good image of biker culture.

That is completely irrelevant.

I'm surrounded, a biker knocks on my window (my personal property), I know that there are bikers who take pride in being outlaws and truffle-makers, so I draw my gun.

He who draws his gun because someone simply "knocks on his personal property" commits a serious felony.

What he may "know" about bikers in general would not enter into the equation at all.

And it may surprise him to learn that his reaching for his firearm might even lead to his being shot in justified self defense by the other person.

 

[TimSr]

I haven't yet watched the video, this reply is only to the issue of whether knocking on a car window is normal or threatening. I agree with Officer's Wife on this, it probably depends on where you are. In Los Angeles if you have a blown taillight and someone wants to tell you about it, they wave at you from a distance to get your attention, then point at the taillight and yell that it's out. If anybody knocked on the window of my car I would consider that very threatening, to me that would feel like my space had been violated.

I'm with you. I'd find it threatening. The degree and appropriate response would depend on the rest of the circumstances. Got lost driving through Cleveland on nigh and ended up in a part of town where I felt threatened just by being there, and even more uncomfortable every time I was caught at a red light. Had somebody walk out in the street and tapped on my passenger window, I'd have found it very threatening. If his 5 buddies were with him, I'd be scared. If it happened at a Walmart parking lot, not so much. And let's face it, they can call you lots of names for being politically incorrect, but the overall appearance and impression you get from the party doing the knocking, and they way they are acting will influence your perception of their intentions. I wasn't there. Maybe he was not reasonable. Maybe he was.

When I need to communicate with a stranger in a vehicle, especially a lady, I consciously make it a point to keep my distance so as to NOT make them unfortable.

 

[old lady new shooter]

What he may "know" about bikers in general would not enter into the equation at all.

Last week or so there was some kind of fight between two biker clubs, one outlaws, the others mostly military and LEO's. So definitely agree that one can't paint all bikers with the same brush.

That said, I would expect military and LEO bikers to follow the rules of the road.

 

[Speedo66]

Last week or so there was some kind of fight between two biker clubs, one outlaws, the others mostly military and LEO's. So definitely agree that one can't paint all bikers with the same brush.

That said, I would expect military and LEO bikers to follow the rules of the road.

Unfortunately, one of the bikers convicted for actively participating in that NYC melee was an NYPD detective.

I guess sometimes a group mentality overcomes someone with otherwise good judgement.

Are you going to leave us hanging as to the winner of that biker brawl?

 

[old lady new shooter]

Unfortunately, one of the bikers convicted for actively participating in that NYC melee was an NYPD detective.

I guess sometimes a group mentality overcomes someone with otherwise good judgement.

Are you going to leave us hanging as to the winner of that biker brawl?

You're obviously not hanging since you know all about it, so I'll defer to you to describe the whole event.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Are you going to leave us hanging as to the winner of that biker brawl?

https://youtu.be/UlQhnGWyQGw?t=119

Words of wisdom.