Open Carry again

[Warp]

I went to Walmart this evening, open carried, walked past a Sheriff Deputy who was on the phone just inside of the doors, picked up (long enough to give it a once over and set it back down where there was better lighting on the shelf) an out-of-box realistic-enough firearm, and even bought 300 rounds of .22lr.

It was like a trifecta

 

[zxcvbob]

The LEO was cleared.

The officer is *always* cleared. So it doesn't mean it was a good shoot, or that it wasn't. (it doesn't really mean anything)

Several witnesses claimed Crawford refused numerous commands to drop the weapon and turned toward the officers in a manor that appeared to them to be confrontational. Two real bad moves any day of the week.

Like you said, the video doesn't tell the whole story. But it tells enough of the story to refute those witnesses' claims. I suspect there were other witnesses too, but their stories didn't support the narrative so we never heard about them.

I'm trying not to put the worst possible spin on it, but that's how I see it. The same thing could happen to any of us, all it would take is carrying a closed umbrella.

 

[Zach S]

<snip>
99% of the time an order is given and people choose not to comply. Then bad things happen.

Agreed.

Years ago, there was an amber alert in my area.. Suspect vehicle, a battered blue Caprice. NC plate number MTJ-xxxx. I drove a battered blue Caprice. NC tag number MTJ-xxxx...

First felony stop was nerve-wrecking... But I played it cool, and if the officer told me to sing "I'm a little teapot" in that case, or the next two, I probably would have.

Choose your battles wisely. Are you doing anything wrong? Doesn't really matter if the officers have already drawn on you. Swallow your pride and comply. You may even get an explaination and apology after everything is sorted out. I did. All three times. The sad thing is that I don't know if they ever found that kid.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I don't need witness statements about what they think happened when the police confronted him...I'd rather watch the video and see it for myself.

Well, fortunately a grand jury investigation looks at more than just video. Witnesses still have some relevance in court and juries still rely on their testimony. I guess we'll have to wait until the DOJ gets through with their investigation. Then you can claim they didn't do their job either if you don't like their decision.

 

[lxd55]

DOJ has not done their job for 6 years. why hold your breath?

ya prolly need to explain the closed umbrella, lotta folks here well....

ya know.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Choose your battles wisely. Are you doing anything wrong? Doesn't really matter if the officers have already drawn on you. Swallow your pride and comply. You may even get an explaination and apology after everything is sorted out. I did. All three times. The sad thing is that I don't know if they ever found that kid.

I had the same experience. I was driving down the hiway minding my own business at 2 in the morning and a HP passed me, cut me off in a manor that I had no choice except hit the shoulder or hit him. Another car, a sheriff, blocked me from behind and three cops bailed out with guns drawn. I was ordered to hug the hood of my car while one frisked me and the other two held us at gun point. I was then detained in cuffs for 2 hours. It seems I was an armed robbery suspect. If I had resisted in any way and not followed every command I'm absolutely sure they would have shot me. They let me go after I was able to verify where I was during the robbery.

There was no video.

 

[basicblur]

Swallow your pride and comply.

More accurately, swallow your pride and hope you've given a chance to comply!

This one is starting to hit a little close to home, since over the last week I've been accused of:
1. Pulling a gun on someone.
2. Coming by their apartment and beating them up and stabbing them.

For a little background, I'm dealing with a (according to a doctor) mentally ill person suffering from alcoholic dementia.

This individual's MO is to prey on the disabled and elderly woman (just sign your house over to me, etc). He's managed to get his hands on a disabled relative's money, and in an effort to put a stop to that, I'm in the process of becoming my disabled relative's disability payee, which will cut out the perp's access to his "cash cow".

He's becoming desperate as he sees his access to my relative's money slipping away, and in an effort to remove me from the picture, he's started filing false police reports on me.

The police quickly determined no gun was involved in report #1.
In report #2, I asked the office that called me exactly what time I supposedly come by this guy's place and "beat him up and knifed him"?
I was told he claimed it happened at 3pm - I told the nice occifer if he'd check with his desk captain, he'd find that at 3pm I was in the local PD talking to the desk captain about the day's previous events (they did, and I was).

I raised a little hell, wanting to know what kind of blowback there was going to be on this fellow - if there is none, then he's going to continue to throw charges against the wall until something sticks (not that I'm going to do anything illegal, but sooner or later I'll get Barney Fife and not Andy Griffith, and I'll end up having to hire a lawyer to defend myself while this guy laughs at you as taxpayers pony up the cost for a DA to do his dirty work for him).

There have been no charges filed against the fellow for filing a false report, but they did flush him out of the condemned building he was living in (and confiscated his 6 cats).

Maybe flushing him out of the building was payback for calling in false reports, but I'd still rather see him charged with such.

 

[Warp]

More accurately, swallow your pride and hope you've given a chance to comply!

Exactly.

I don't see time allotted to comply in that video.

 

[GoWolfpack]

Exactly.

I don't see time allotted to comply in that video.

Reminds me of the South Carolina State Trooper who shot a man in the parking lot of a gas station during a seat belt stop. The trooper is screaming "Get on the ground!" at his subject while shooting at him.

No chance to comply, just punctuating his command with bullets.

 

[Warp]

Reminds me of the South Carolina State Trooper who shot a man in the parking lot of a gas station during a seat belt stop. The trooper is screaming "Get on the ground!" at his subject while shooting at him.

No chance to comply, just punctuating his command with bullets.

That was a screwed up situation for sure.

BUT it isn't necessarily bad or wrong to be firing while giving commands. Depends on the circumstances of the specific incident.

 

[Bobson]

Reminds me of the South Carolina State Trooper who shot a man in the parking lot of a gas station during a seat belt stop. The trooper is screaming "Get on the ground!" at his subject while shooting at him.

You mean the one where the man is asked to provide ID and he immediately dives into his car to retrieve it?

Let's stick to the topic, fellas.

Also, if someone would help me understand the emphasis in this thread on the actions of the cop, that would be great.

1. This isn't a "legal" thread.
2. This isn't a law enforcement critique board.
3. The guy is dead, whether the cop's actions were right, wrong, or somewhere in between.
4. The cop has already been cleared.

There is zero reason to discuss the officer's actions. Why don't we focus on what we can do to prevent the loss of life in the future? If you don't have something productive to add, refrain from posting at all.

"I wouldn't have acted the same way if I was a cop."
Firmly established. Good for you. Let's move on.

 

[Warp]

Why don't we focus on what we can do to prevent the loss of life in the future?

Don't have a gun or something that looks like a gun (arguably, the pellet gun was a gun, though it isn't legally a firearm) in your hands in public, especially somewhere like Walmart.

For carry in public handguns belong in holsters, and rifles (let's not get into the whole 'who carries a rifle' thing and just acknowledge that for a lot of people it's legal and if they want to it's their choice) belong in slings behind your back. Generally speaking. IMHO

 

[zxcvbob]

Don't have a gun or something that looks like a gun (arguably, the pellet gun was a gun, though it isn't legally a firearm) in your hands in public, especially somewhere like Walmart.

And if you're in a Walmart and see a BB-gun out of its package, don't pick it up, it might be a trap!

I just thought of something scary. I wonder if the fake-ex-marine that call in the 911 was the one who left the pellet gun open on the shelf?

 

[GoWolfpack]

Also, if someone would help me understand the emphasis in this thread on the actions of the cop, that would be great.
[snip]
There is zero reason to discuss the officer's actions.

The officer killed a man who committed no crime and threatened no one. I would say he plays a pivotal role in the situation we're discussing.

 

[Zach S]

Reminds me of the South Carolina State Trooper who shot a man in the parking lot of a gas station during a seat belt stop. The trooper is screaming "Get on the ground!" at his subject while shooting at him.

No chance to comply, just punctuating his command with bullets.

In my experience, those situations are the exception, not the rule.

And as far as "the officer is always cleared," that officer was fired and charged.

 

[Midwest]

Ohio open-carry supporters bring guns to Walmart police shooting protest

Ohio open-carry supporters bring guns to Walmart police shooting protest

40 people showed up at the Beavercreek Walmart to protest and some of them were open carrying.

http://rt.com/usa/193656-guns-walmart-crawford-shooting/


“We came here armed. We are proponents of open-carry. This case is clearly a case related to open carry. Maybe John Crawford wasn’t carrying a real firearm but he was carrying what seemed to be a real firearm, and the over-reaction of the police in this instance is completely outrageous,” Virgil Vadura told WDTN."
.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Here is the topic as I see it.

Our good friends over at Moms Demand Action, advocate "SWAT-ing" of open carry practitioners.

I'm going to try to stay on topic here.

Swat response is relevant to the topic. I used to work for the gov't and talked to many LEO's. It is a common tactic in many situations.

I think it has become popular with LE agencies because it is an effective way of taking down a would be shooter without a lot of collateral damage to LEO's and the public in many situations. It doesn't always work that way but that's the premise.

LE agencies are going to continue to use SWAT tactics. I can assure you that part of the equation isn't going to change anytime soon. Having worked for the gov't I have a pretty good handle on that. People with cell phones are going to continue to call 911 and exaggerate what they are seeing, or think they see, to get a police response. Some people are going to make false claims to police in person and even under oath in court. That part isn't going to change either.

The most flexible part of the equation is how and where people OC and how they respond to the police when they do. I think a lot of this conversation has centered around the response or lack of time provided to respond to the police. The police think they have a few seconds before they put some holes in you and you may think you have a few minutes to discuss the situation because you have a constitutional right to OC. There is a huge disconnect there.

Not following a cops orders and arguing with them seems to be a very popular thing to do these days. When weapons are drawn that isn't the time to be having a discussion about your right to do whatever you think your right is. That can be settled in court or after the situation has de-escalated without being shot provided you are given the time to comply. In most situations you will be given a reasonable amount of time to comply. If not then the LEO is going to be in serious trouble. Your condition will probably be worse.

 

[Frosty Dave]

This article on an open carry case in today's news. At a minimum, the incident borders on SWATing. Also interesting is the court's opinion on First Amendment symbolic messages.

Excerpt; short form of what happened:

On the evening of June 16, 2010, Northrup was walking down a street in his neighborhood, with his wife, daughter, grandson, and their Yorkshire terrier, and a handgun holstered on his right hip, when Alan Rose drove by on a motorcycle. Northrup and Rose did not know each other, but Rose stopped his motorcycle and began telling Northrup that he could not walk around in public while openly carrying a handgun. Northrup and his wife told Rose that open carry of a firearm is legal in Ohio, but the conversation quickly devolved into an argument. After a few minutes, Northrup and his family continued walking while Rose called 911.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/10/07/lawful-open-carry-and-the-first-second-and-fourth-amendments/

Excerpts; on the First Amendment:

He contends he “was engaged in symbolic speech by openly carrying a firearm in a holster” and that this “expressed his opinion that Ohioans should exercise their fundamental right to bear arms and educate the public that open carry is permissible in Ohio.”

the “relevant inquiry” is whether there is a great likelihood that those who observed the plaintiffs would understand the message they attempted to convey. Here, it is clear Northrup did not convey his intended message simply by openly carrying a handgun, as he and Rose argued about whether Northrup legally could carry a handgun in that manner. The fact that Northrup … had to explain the message he intended to convey undermines the argument that observers would likely understand the message.

I rarely OC but logic like this is enough to convince me of the value of OC as a statement. I think I would put a bright orange "LEGAL" sign on my holster or something similar to force the question of free speech.

I strongly disagree that the court should be allowed to decide whether non-verbal speech is worthy of 1A protection. When someone burns the flag, nobody requires them to also have a sign that says "I'm burning this flag because America sucks." Of course in that case we know what they mean. That act is so common we all know the message. How does OC gain the same status as political speech when that speech is pre-censored by court precedent?

The act of OC caused one passerby to stop, and a discussion of legality followed. Why isn't that enough to show that the gun owner's act of OC is connected to his desire "that Ohioans should exercise their fundamental right to bear arms and educate the public that open carry is permissible in Ohio.”

Is the only cure that more people OC until the perception changes to, let's say, that openly carried handguns "are in common use?"

 

[Fastgun]

How and when to OC

How and when is indeed the question. Straping a AR to your back and going into Wendys, MC Donalds and so forth does nothing to help the cause so to speak.

 

[Fastgun]

In this day and age we need to be above reproach. It is my belief that it we make that attempt . It will be the people at large who come to our aid when the far right pulls this BS

 

[GoWolfpack]

How and when is indeed the question. Straping a AR to your back and going into Wendys, MC Donalds and so forth does nothing to help the cause so to speak.

Way to skip right over the thing we're talking about and head right for the most offensive OC incident you could think of.

 

[itsa pain]

I found a video link that work. The image in the camera is small but it appears to me the Crawford never made a obvious turn and pointed the gun at the police.

Warp as you said the Police Officers were cleared as is almost always the case. I know from my years of experience as a LEO it is almost always how I wrote my report on how I could twist the event.



Actually they may very well be promoted. Remember Ruby Ridge? "Oh my God she is holding a baby" murder of Randy Weaver's wife? The FBI sniper and with the FBI Supervisors were not only protected by the Agency but were promoted and had long careers with the FBI.

The bottom line is the Police and anti's get away with this stuff because we allow it. The good news is the public is starting to push back but I fear it may be too late.

You must have been a real good cop the type that I remember as a kid. What irony if gun guys are swatted by the same LEO people that most of them worship

 

[JRH6856]

In this day and age we need to be above reproach. It is my belief that it we make that attempt . It will be the people at large who come to our aid when the far right pulls this BS

That makes no sense.

 

[Mainsail]

How and when is indeed the question. Straping a AR to your back and going into Wendys, MC Donalds and so forth does nothing to help the cause so to speak.

Neither does hyperbole and division, and yet there you go.

 

[Fastgun]

Fellas your point is well taken. Not my intention is not to offend . I'm on your side .