"Open carry" and being charged w/ "inducing panic"...

[Igloodude]

Heh, no. MA is a lost cause. NH, people still get rough treatment for open carry, but it is getting better as more departments get educated.

It makes me wonder. I was in the Salem, NH WallyWorld last Sunday afternoon and driving down three lanes of parked cars, eight out of every ten (maybe nine out of ten) were Mass-tagged.

Is it possible that Mayor Menino's goofball statements about guns in neighboring states could have an upside - the recognition to Masscitizens that there IS a difference between Mass laws and NH laws (as regards guns, they clearly already know about the tax code differences)? And thus, going nuts because you see a gun in New Hampshire is a personal problem, not a criminal one?

 

[Igloodude]

Erebus - my company's office is in Mass as well; I've managed to avoid official displeasure at my gunniness by bringing co-workers to the range, including my boss. Four last year, and probably another few in the next few months, out of a total of two-dozen staff.

Having "otherwise-sensible" officemates that have been to the range with you and can attest to your safety awareness is the perfect antidote to that sort of paranoia.

 

[xd9fan]

yeah speaking of the paranoia.
Its hard to prevent babies from crying.....

 

[Sam Adams]

Soybomb

In illinois where there is no carry, open, or concealed Shaun Kranish was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct for wearing a thigh holster and a shirt that said "I CARRY". The charges were later dropped.

I wonder if Kranish sued the department in question and, if so, did he win his case? Seems like simple free speech to me, which seems backed up by the fact that the charges were dropped. Then arresting someone for this would be a denial of their civil rights, and the cop(s) involved, the department and the municipality/county/state could all be sued. If so, I'd like to do this in NJ when I visit family, just to make some extra dollars and embarass the fascist government there.

 

[Z_Infidel]

In Ohio the problem is likely to be local ordinances within large urban areas. Section 9 of the CCW law states that local laws cannot interfere with a permit holder carrying concealed on public property and yet the city of Toledo arrested and prosecuted a man for carrying concealed in a city park (I think an appeal is in the works). That's the same type of trouble that is likely to occur if one carries openly in certain areas.

Now where I live in Ohio, you can walk around carrying openly and nobody will likely pay any attention -- until you walk into town. I'm not sure what will happen then. Based on state law, Jim March SHOULD be correct.

 

[Smurfslayer]

This is actually very responsible advice.

Just when I thought I was out.... They pull me back in...

I think that if you're going to make the assertions you do about your perceived inappropriateness of open carry, and how it will result in malicious, unlawful arrest and prosecution, you should provide some form of proof.

Kony has, and I can personally back up a great many of his accounts that the opposite is true. I've got over a year's worth of data and have been open carrying in NoVA for a few years longer than that, and if you can count it, the only incident having been Champps of Reston - no arrests, no prosecutions, nobody snatched any guns from the holster, nobody's tried to prove or disprove the Tueller drill with us, or tried their own home brewed Darwinian experiment.

And no friend of a friend of a 3rd cousin who knows a LEO, provide us some actual police reports, or first hand accounts of someone being arrested in PA for the sole act of open carrying in PA...

 

[kel]

I think that if you're going to make the assertions you do about your perceived inappropriateness of open carry, and how it will result in malicious, unlawful arrest and prosecution, you should provide some form of proof.

Try google.
http://www.google.com/search?q=arre...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Or a thread submitted yesterday:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=190234

It can happen anywhere in any state, even states where open carry is legal. You could also google "NH open carry" for 3 examples of people being harassed and detained but not arrested.You are correct that the odds areo LOWER in NoVA, low enough that it is defacto legal but this is not the case in some open carry states. While open carrying in Nashville TN I was told to pack it up an leave or I was going to have a problem... I bring this as my personal proof that it can happen in an open carry state. The problem is not the law, open carry is legal where it is legal, but the LEOs who enforce it, if they can't charge you with breaking the law they will find the next closest thing that fits and make you go through the courts to get clean. Meanwhile, you bleed money and dignity for their illegal behavior and there is no realistic recourse other then the bring your story to other voters.

This man away on appeal http://fishorman.blogspot.com/2005/12/judges-decision-is-in.html he posted a thread here I believe and was largely ridiculed for his work if I remember correctly.

 

[Vex]

Ohio Revised Code § 2917.31. Inducing panic.

(A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:

(1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;

(2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;

(3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

As long as you don't threaten anyone with the gun, it doesn't look like carrying a firearm openly will constitute any of those causes. The report of you carrying a firearm is not false, and as long as you dont initiate or circulate the report, it doesn't apply. You didn't threaten violence, therefore it doesn't apply to (2). And the first 3 words of (3) says "committing any offense" when it's clear that there is no offense in carrying a firearm openly. Therefore if a person is charged with Inducing Panic for carrying a firearm openly, it's a false charge.

 

[Molon Labe]

Therefore if a person is charged with Inducing Panic for carrying a firearm openly, it's a false charge.

What is the penalty for an LEO who arrests me on false charges?

 

[Vex]

Call his department. Could be anything from reprimand, suspension, firing or even criminal charges depending on how severe your detainment was. If you were stopped for 10 minutes until he could determine if you were breaking any laws, then his supervisor will probably just say, "Hey douschebag, don't hassle the people who carry guns legally." If he threw you in jail where you sat for a week without arraignment, and he impounded property, and you feel that the incident happened in a place where your reputation would now be tarnished, then he's looking at getting canned, possibly facing criminal charges, and you'll have a civil suit with his department through vicarious liability.

Here's a good theoretical example: You're in a grocery store with a handgun clearly visible on your thigh. You're shopping, minding your own business, and there is no reason so suspect any foul play. Another customer sees this gun, gets scared, and starts telling people she's afraid of you because you could kill someone, which leads to the cops getting called. Guess who broke the law? The whining customer. Awesome, eh?

 

[kel]

Call his department. Could be anything from reprimand, suspension, firing or even criminal charges depending on how severe your detainment was. If you were stopped for 10 minutes until he could determine if you were breaking any laws, then his supervisor will probably just say, "Hey douschebag, don't hassle the people who carry guns legally." If he threw you in jail where you sat for a week without arraignment, and he impounded property, and you feel that the incident happened in a place where your reputation would now be tarnished, then he's looking at getting canned, possibly facing criminal charges, and you'll have a civil suit with his department through vicarious liability.

What if he arrests you and takes you in? What if you get booked overnight so a judge can decide your fate the next morning? What if there is no Judge available for a longer period of time? What then? It's not their fault, they are just doing their jobs.

If open carry is rare enough in a given state then there will be enough officers that this can be repeated multiple times without any officer needing to become a repeat offender. Situations like this are the reason officers can determine the practical legality of open carry in states like WA or MA. In MA they revoke your license (they don't even need a reason) if you open carry and then they can take your guns, if they are really nice they will let you transfer them to an FFL for sale. To get your license (and right to even own handguns) back you have go through the courts which means more time and money. The funny thing is that I remember reading the case law in MA stating that open carry was legal, it was part of a newletter intended for LEO that was supposed to guide what they could do to gun owners now that the law had changed. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

 

[Vex]

What if he arrests you and takes you in? What if you get booked overnight so a judge can decide your fate the next morning? What if there is no Judge available for a longer period of time? What then? It's not their fault, they are just doing their jobs.

There's only one way to find out the answer to all your, "what if's." Every case, every situation, and every outcome is different. It's too hard to guess.

 

[The Drew]

It is interesting to note that today a section of pittsburgh was practically locked down when there was a report of a man with a rifle....

As of yet I haven't heard if they made an (unjustified) arrest.

 

[imas]

check packing.org and ohioccw.org for specifics but this is a summary

You can open carry and the law states that it CANNOT be ruled inducing panic. I don't remember but I think it was the Ohio Supreme court that said this. Check those sites to find out.

 

[gunsmith]

I think the panic will cease

if more folks carried open, I like having a choice of open carry or concealed.
when the weather hits 100 degrees open carry is more comfortable.
I have read all the intenet debates I care to on the subject of open and concealed and I think open is better because you can get your weapon faster if you need it. seconds count in a gun battle (imho)...

I open carry in AZ and most folks do not notice it, here in Reno it isn't legal but in some parts of NV it is , but not to many folks seem to do it.

 

[BB62]

JIM MARCH -

Ohio's Supreme Court ruled that open carry is specifically legal on state constitutional grounds.

I personally would open carry in Ohio and sue the bejeezus out of any agency that says otherwise.

Jim,

The Ohio Supreme Court was (unfortunately) not as clear on the subject of open carry and I and many others would like. The decision in which it was mentioned overrode no laws, NOR was it as definitive as some say, or some think. The decision was Klein v Leis. Leis is the Hamilton County Sheriff.

Yes, I open carried in SW Ohio, but doing to in mid or northern Ohio will either get you arrested, charged, or greatly inconvenienced.

Someone else mentioned a guy in a park in northern Ohio. That would be Bruce Beatty. He was charged with violating a city ordinance against CCW in one of their parks, and received a misdemeanor ticket, which he fought. The appeals court is STILL after many, many months SITTING ON THE CASE. What a joke.

I thoroughly like the idea of open carry, but the two big RKBA orgs in Ohio - Buckeye Firearms Assn, and Ohioans for Concealed Carry are focusing on enhancing our dark ages CCW laws, not ensuring open carry is hassle free (a la VCDL).

If you want to come to mid or northern Ohio to open carry, study the laws, and the OSC decision, then call me.


BB62

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Senor BB62, Jim has made CAREER out of being inconvenienced.

Anyway, Jim is not allowed to do that in Ohio. He is needed right here in California and really should not be allowed to leave the state. He's sort of like a "strategic resource" for the State of California.

 

[BB62]

Mr. Taco,

I am very well aware of Jim's background, but his assertion needed to be corrected.

And yes, I agree, CA needs him a lot more than Ohio.


BB62

 

[Molon Labe]

The Ohio Supreme Court was (unfortunately) not as clear on the subject of open carry and I and many others would like.

Perhaps. But if it doesn't say you can't, then you can. That's the way our laws work.

 

[BB62]

Perhaps. But if it doesn't say you can't, then you can. That's the way our laws work.

That's the way our laws are *supposed* to work.

Because the OSC ruling did not specifically endorse open carry, and was only mentioned in the MINORITY opinion, it will cost you lots of money to see how things work in Ohio.

The OSC, not I'm sure unlike CA's Supreme Court, would resort to any way of thinking to justify their desired ends.

I can see it now... "Mr. Molon Labe -you have a concealed carry license, yet you were open carrying, knowing that such an act would alarm quite a few people!? So to exercise your right you feel it is okay to needlessly alarm other people - especially when you could have carried your firearm in such a way as to not cause that reaction??"

Hey, I agree that open carry ought to be accepted in ALL Ohio, but making it so will take quite an effort - which if someone wants to start (in the aforementioned portions of the state), I will join - but not without some serious legal study.


BB62

 

[Thain]

IMHO, the when and where of open carry is going to have a bigger effect on the public at large then the gun itself. Michigan is a de jure open carry State. However, you'll have much better luck exercising that particular right in the woods, rivers, and lakes of northern Michigan than you would on the streets of Suburban Detroit.

Frankly, I prefer concealed carry in my day-to-day life (ah, the myriad joys of lower middle-class service industry retail sales in suburban Hell) but much prefer open carry when backpacking, camping, hunting, et cetra.

Even if LEO never gets involved, I just wouldn't want to deal with the flak from the public at large if I were to carry openly in, say, Ann Arbor or West Bloomfield. I mean, even if it doesn;t cause a full out 'panic' it will still make folks nervous. I'm as pro-gun as anyone here, but when I spot anyone with a weapon (even uniformed police and CCW permit-holding acquaintances) I keep one eye on their strong-hand.

Interestingly enough, I've also found that people tend to react very differnlty to a glimpse of a concealed handgun or even talk of firearms based on how I'm dressed. If I'm wearing my nice business suits, silk tie, and have recently trimmed my beard most people seem to take it in stride; my weekend togs of blue-jeans, video game t-shirt, and unkempt beard doesn't seem to go over so well (I got a lecture from one of the Million Moms just for reading Combat Hanguns in a Starbucks!)

I have no doubt it is because people assume I'm some sort of LEO when they see the suit. Gun + Suit + Polite = Goodguy. (Young + Video Games + Messy Hair) x (Media Bias) = Columbine Waco Clocktower Nutjob.

 

[Smurfslayer]

Try google.

Try reading my last sentence.

And no friend of a friend of a 3rd cousin who knows a LEO, provide us some actual police reports, or first hand accounts of someone being arrested in PA for the sole act of open carrying in PA...

Not for nothing, but I know the phrase "your mileage may vary" does apply. Your experience in TN being first hand is valid, but the point I was trying to make was that more often than not this crazy internet rumor snowballs into something nowhere close to reality.

The problem is not the law, open carry is legal where it is legal, but the LEOs who enforce it, if they can't charge you with breaking the law they will find the next closest thing that fits and make you go through the courts to get clean. Meanwhile, you bleed money and dignity for their illegal behavior and there is no realistic recourse other then the bring your story to other voters.

The problem you address may be part of it, but not all of it. The bigger problem is US. We've allowed ourselves to be collectively "cowed" into the belief that 'only the police should carry guns'. There might be some places where unlawful arrests for open carry do happen. Fairfax county had one a few years ago where they rousted two guys and seized their guns. Both acts were unlawful, and, buy Supreme court ruling, criminal. FCPD did right that situation eventually. Your point about the rarity of the open carry is legit. After Champps, more than one of the 13 filed department level complaints. This time, to their credit, they fixed it very quickly, and there hasn't been a problem I'm aware of in Fairfax since. Could there be? Sure, we get lesser qualified cops from NJ & NY all the time who transfer in. They learn.

I've gotten into a discussion with a LEO on the subject of the prosecution's chief (and only) witness telling fibs under oath in traffic court. You know... teeny, tiny little fibs like "I observed the suspect's vehicle

enter the intersection after the traffic signal went red
in heavy traffic travelling faster than surrounding traffic
operating their vehicle too close to the white line/yellow line

my personal favorite: The suspect was travelling so fast I was barely able to keep up (this was testimony for a 64 mph in a 55 mph zone, with light traffic on a clear day on I495/95 around DC)... riiiiiiiiiiight.

His contention was "No officer would risk their employment, retirement and freedom over a $200 ticket." Mine was that it happened all the time. Needless to say, we never found common ground in that discussion.

Does "this kind of thing" - fibbing under oath, or "making up a charge" to fit some otherwise law abiding folk for open carrying go on? Yeah, probably... Is it as prevalent as the all powerful Internet would have us believe?

I don't think so. Still, this should not be interpreted as a blanket endorsement to open carry. That's an individual decision. Know the law before you do it. If you're the victim of undue LEO attention, follow up on it, don't just 'tolerate' it.

The funny thing is that I remember reading the case law in MA stating that open carry was legal, it was part of a newletter intended for LEO that was supposed to guide what they could do to gun owners now that the law had changed. I'll have to see if I can dig it up

That would be more than funny, that would be downright glorious.

I can see it now... "Mr. Molon Labe -you have a concealed carry license, yet you were open carrying, knowing that such an act would alarm quite a few people!? So to exercise your right you feel it is okay to needlessly alarm other people - especially when you could have carried your firearm in such a way as to not cause that reaction??"

Mr. Patrolman, I see that you're open carrying too, as well as carrying additional items which could be employed against someone as a weapon. You could have concealed these items and there wouldn't be that panic reaction ...

 

[DKSuddeth]

Someone should remind the courts and LEOs that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'. Someone should also point out that the RKBA is in BOTH constitutions but nowhere is there a right to 'not be alarmed' by someone exercising their right who is NOT ignorant of the law.

sometimes I wish I was single, highly mobile, and free to test this crap myself.

 

[Thain]

Even if you never get arrested, getting hassled by a cop is a sure way to ruin your day. Be it for open carry, riding without a helmet, or driving 56 in a 55 MPH zone... Or my personal favorite, driving with too much melanin.

If you have a reasonable idea that doing X will cause problems with the people at Y, you either avoid X or you avoid Y. I'm not going to wear a Pink Pistols t-shirt into the Coast Guard recruiters office when I'm talking to him about my future enlistment. It's just not gonna work out.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I'm not going to wear a Pink Pistols t-shirt into the Coast Guard recruiters office when I'm talking to him about my future enlistment. It's just not gonna work out.

Maybe thats why I got strange looks for wearing my rainbow coalition T-shirt to my White Power meeting

In all seriousness though, The more that this 'harrassment' could be made public, it would eventually stop or the cops would end up being embarrassed. my opinion anyway.