Opinion Poll on Massad Ayoob

[FPrice]

Basis for Opinion on Massad Ayoob

Having read several (including the current) threads on Mas Ayoob I am curious on how people have formed their opinions of this somewhat controversial (to say the least) individual.

For the record, I have never taken an LFI course nor have I observed the man in person. I have read some of his books and many of his magazine articles and seen him on TV a very few times.

1. POSITIVE: I have a positive opinion based upon taking a course from Ayoob OR personally observing him at a shooting event or professional gathering in which he played a significant role.

2. POSITIVE: I have a positive opinion of Ayoob although I have never taken a course from him nor have I observed him at a shooting event or a professional gathering in which he played a significant role.

3. NEGATIVE: I have a negative opinion based upon taking a course from Ayoob OR personally observing him at a shooting event or professional gathering in which he played a significant role.

4. NEGATIVE: I have a negative opinion of Ayoob although I have never taken a course from him nor have I observed him at a shooting event or a professional gathering in which he played a significant role.

 

[Third_Rail]

Geeze, injecting logic into an argument is a sure way to kill it quick.



What about a neutral option? I don't have an opinion on the man one way or the other.

 

[grnzbra]

Count my vote as

1

 

[RavenVT100]

Count my vote as 1 also.

 

[Soap]

2

 

[Old Guy]

Seen, spoke to

Count my vote as
1

My first meeting of Mr. Ayoob was many years ago at a shooting match in PA Harrisburg, I was asked to pick him up from the Airport I did, very pleasant individual, tried to pay the $2.00 parking fee! Then insisted he buy me a pint at the Hotel we stayed at, he shot very well, have seen him on quite a few occasions since, he is a member of an organization I have been on the board of for 20 years.

The last match I shot with him was a month ago here in Florida, he is a good sport, safe with firearms, and jumps right in to patch targets, and reset props.

Keep Safe.

 

[Trebor]

1 as well.

 

[pax]

1

pax

It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. -- Pierre De Beaumarchais

Most of the arguments to which I am a party fall somewhat short of being impressive, owing to the fact that neither I nor my opponent knows what we are talking about. -- Robert Benchley

 

[buzz_knox]

1

 

[Wichaka]

He seems to be wearing out his welcome in the L.E. circles. His articles are pretty much jibberish to sell the magazines. He talks real well, has some experience about legal matters, but it sure doesn't come out in the rags very well. If he was still able to write articles as well as he speaks, he'd have a better following.

He was invited to our state's L.E. Firearms Instructors seminar some years ago, he spoke real well but on the range he had an AD with his rifle. He tried to sluff it off, then couldn't understand why he was asked to step off the range. No class in that area.

I use to follow his stuff years ago, not anymore. His last few articles had no substance to what he was trying to get across, he couldn't make his case. He ought to proof read what he writes, he himself might be amazed what he's writing.

 

[Essex County]

I read 'Ol mass for years and took all for gospel. That being said I was introduced to him many years ago ( at a non gun setting I percieved him to be up on a pedestal). Many years later I became friends with a well rsepected shooter, who had taken LFI courses and shared motel rooms at some major shoots and gave me the response " pompus '. In all respects I'm sure he knows his stuff, but he doesn't sound like someone I'd invite to hunting camp............Essex

 

[mainmech48]

2

Primarily from reading his books and his articles in various magazines over many years. IME, his arguments are generally well-reasoned and soundly presented with documentation and/or statistics. I respect that these are almost always supported with footnotes citing specific case law or souce document titles so one can read them in context and decide for one's self how germaine they might be.

His skills with firearms have been more-than-adequately demonstrated by his success in several types of formal and practical competition. The fact that he is highly sought after as an 'expert witness' for the defense in both civil and criminal trials concerning the use of Lethal Force by LEOs and civilians speaks volumes to me as to his credibility in those matters.

It certainly hasn't hurt that he personally is highly respected and spoken of by professionals under whom I have trained, or that his LFI training classes have been universally recommended to me by professionals of my acquaintance who've taken them.

Hopefully, with a bit more saving I'll be able to change my vote to #1.

 

[Greg L]

2.333 - a neutral option would have been nice .

I've read lots of his stuff - some good/some bad
I've never met him/taken a class - heard lots of good stuff about the classes/heard lots of good/bad about him

All in all he's done more good than bad but like most everything else in life you shouldn't get all your information from just one source.

 

[Curare]

In reading his work he obviously cares a great deal about the proper use of lethal force--and is willing to defend those who are forced to do so.

Some people may not like his advice--so what. There are many ways to solve a problem, and his ways are respected.

Is his writing as pithy and adroit as Clint Smith? Not really, but I feel I've learned much from what I've read in the last decade.

 

[FPrice]

To all those who mentioned a neutral option...

You certainly have a valid point, but I was looking for a different pattern, one in which neutral did not play a factor.

However this is the first poll I have ever posted and your comments have made me re-think how I would do such a poll next time. Thanks for your input.

 

[Legionnaire]

Positive. LFI-I and LFI-II grad. Don't like all he says, or his language, yet have respect for the man and like him on a personal level.

 

[Bix]

1

 

[CajunBass]

Massad Ayoob

I've read one of his books, a lot of his magazine articles. I wouldn't know him if he knocked on my door.

I figure he knows more than I do though.

 

[Barry in IN]

I voted Option 2, but would've considered the oft-requested Neutral vote.

I like some things he has said/written/done, and dislike others.

The biggest issue with many, myself included, is his legal-related commentary. I think he overdoes it with some of the legal issues, but I also think it's certainly meant to help, rather than to sound smart. I roll my eyes at some of it, but if I was being dragged into a courtroom I might be calling him ASAP.

He wrote an article in "Guns" about a year or so ago about one of my favorites- the Browning HiPower. A lot of HiPower fans got pretty upset about it, saying a lot of it was heresay, with some speculation sprinkled in.
I agree.

Many LEOs have a low opinion of him, and I have heard some say that "He isn't a real LEO". This comes from him being a reserve officer on a small-town department, and spending so much time either teaching a class or taking one.
I can't fault anyone for taking training. I understand his classes are very good. If serving as a reserve officer on a small force is what it takes to get that done, well, it looks like he planned things well.

I understand his shooting skills are impressive (the AD event mentioned above notwithstanding).

Over the years, I have seen his opinion change regarding different issues. He may seem to like Brand X ammo, or type of gun, or a certain shooting method for a few years, then change. Some have said he "follows the money", and his opinions are based on that.
I don't know, but I do know that I change my mind a lot more often than he does. If I find something better, or something is no longer available, I change. I think he is doing the same.

I will always appreciate him writing about the defenseive use of firearms back when it didn't seem exactly welcome.
When I started reading gun books and magazines in the '70s, 99% of it was "for sportsmen". The topic of self-defense wasn't exactly forbidden, but there were more articles on handgun silhouette shooting than there were about carry guns and skills. I guess the gun industry was nervous after the GCA '68, gun bans, etc, and they seemed a little timid for a while.
Massad Ayoob wasn't the only writer to cover the subject then, but there didn't seem to be many others.

I haven't taken a class of his, but would like to. However, it is a ways down my training wish list.

 

[BriGuy1]

I have taken LFI I and II and plan on taking III. In class, Mas explains the 'what' and the 'why' behind it.

Much of the criticisim of his writing seems to revolve around his suggestions for side-stepping stupid lawyer tricks played out in the courtroom, or his views on the setting of firearms policy for broad populations of users. In class, not once did he say don't modify your gun, or avoid light triggers, or any of the other nonsense that is so often attributed to him. What I saw and heard in his classes was first class stuff.

 

[Universal]

I have had the pleasure to communicate directly with him twice via email. The first was when I was doing research to pick new duty ammo for my PD and the second time was after I retired and had a question for myself. Both times I got a reply within 24 hours and both were very helpful.

I voted for option number 2.

 

[Jeff22]

I've taken three classes from Massad Ayoob, and have been reading his articles since he began writing for Law & Order Magazine back in the mid-1970s.

In a small group he can be very self-depreciating and funny and casual and is quite honest that he has "only" been a part time cop in a small town for all those years, and mostly dealt with the "routine" calls an environment like that generates. I found him to be very colorful and well prepared in lecture and I also really liked that he was quick to recommend other instructors and institution by name when asked about other training providers.

I was at a law enforcement specific class where he seemed a little bit defensive and on edge (like he had something to prove) and antagonized some of the participants a little bit.

At his best, his writing is pretty good. However, when you're under contract to write monthly articles for three or four different magazines, I supose you run out of good ideas sometimes and have to recycle material.

Schedule allowing, I'm going to LFI II later this year and I'll buy his rifle book whenever that might come out.

 

[Albert Shear]

Are any of us perfect

Thats the question that should be asked. I've known Mas for over a dozen years. I know his faults. I've trained with him, been to lunch, dinner and just had coffee with him. Shot with him. If I had my choice of who I could have at my side if that day ever came when the bad people came calling it would Mas.
He Started LFI and teaching civilians when there was just about no one else. He believed in us being able to defend ourselves even in a time when our own governments didn't. There were no shall issue states, ccw permits were few and far between. He did everything in his power to make sure we stayed safe physically and in the judicial system.
He makes a big chunk of income by writing. So he writes. Some is good, some isn't. Take it or leave it. Its just a magazne article. I won't read American Handgunner after they published the article by Mr Venturino about Bill Jordan whom I met in my younger days as a police officer. So, yous ee anybody can write and print something you don't like.
Mas could pass the bar in half the states if he wanted. I've seen lawyers ask him questions that they thought he could not possibly answer on points of law and he threw the answers right back at them.

Sorry, I can't vote in a poll on a person. whether I know them or not. I would not want anyone to "vote" on me. I'm not perfect either.

 

[FPrice]

Albert...

Sorry, I can't vote in a poll on a person. whether I know them or not. I would not want anyone to "vote" on me. I'm not perfect either.

I understand your point here, but my intent was not to "vote" on Massad Ayoob and determine if he is perfect or not. As you alude to, none of us are perfect and that definitely includes me.

My intent was to determine in a very basic manner how people have formed their own opinion of Ayoob. Have they actually observed him (and his alleged bad language and jokes) and formed a negative opinion by first-hand experience? (which is legitimate) Have they depended upon others' impressions and opinions to form their opinion?

You have actually made my intended point very well. You obviously know him, have observed him many times, and can see his good qualities as well as his not-so-good. And you have formed an opinion based upon first-hand knowledge and some of your own apparent experience/expertise in the field of firearms.

It is perfectly okay to have either a positive or negative opinion about a subject or a person. But that opinion should be based upon some careful thought and analysis, not hasty conclusions.

Thank you for taking the time to reply and explain your position.

 

[Albert Shear]

FPrice,
Please do not take any of what I said as a personal attack, it was not meant as such. I apologize if taken that way. Over the years I have seen countless posts on scores of forums with Mas' name attached and each time it always comes down to an attack of one of the pioneers of our gun rights movement. I cannot for life of me understand why no other has polarized the community so much after having devoted his life to his passion. I see no polls on Clint Smith, Gabe Suarez Dave Miller etc.. .
I will shut up now. You stay safe and I'm off to see another friend, D.R. Middlebrooks. SSHH! I would hate to see another poll.
Albert