OPINIONS: Is the 5.45x39 better than .223?

[GRIZ22]

Both cartridges are similar in performance but to spend $800 for a gun to shoot cheap ammo is false economics. The current political climate also makes the availablilty of cheap 5.45 questionable. You just might find yourself in a situation with a 5.45 rifle and no ammo available other than your private stocks. You can find 223/5.56 everywhere.

I'll stick to 223/5.56

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

Hmm interesting. I guess I didn't know there were 5.45x39 AR uppers out there. I should look into that.....

Got anymore info on such a thing? I've truly never heard of that.

They're made by S&W and Olympic, if memory serves.

 

[gvnwst]

Got anymore info on such a thing?

Alexander Arms made one once (.221 genghis or something) but they didn't sell well, and aren't made anymore. I don't know about Olympic, but they might make one. S&W's is the best bet.

 

[Acera]

This is the point I am trying to make.

5.56: $400 x 5 1K cases = $2,000


5.45: $120 x 6 1K cases = $720 + $1,225 (new S&W Rifle) = $1,945

5.45: $120 x 12 1K cases = $1,440 + $550 (Oly Upper) = $1,990



So basically for $2,000 I can get a new rifle and 6,000 rounds for about the same price as I would pay for just 5,000 rounds the 5.56 ammo.

Now if I don't get the entire rifle, just get an upper to go on an existing rifle, that equates to a savings that could get me a total of 12,000 rounds of ammo! I don't know about you guys, but I consider that much ammo in one caliber sufficient for the near future. All this is based on a one time expense of approximately $2,000.

If I then save up, and buy just a 5.56 barrel and bolt for the rifle, I can change it out if and when the 5.45 becomes unavailable. (Now you could buy the barrel, bolt, instead of the extra 1K ammo for about the same price.) But in the meantime, I could be stashing a lot more ammo.

Down side, there does not appear to be any hope for ever being to get primers for the Russian stuff, so there is a slight advantage to the 5.56 in that regard. But I think it is increasingly hard to reload 5.56 for what the Russian stuff costs.

Up side, the economics and the similar ballistics.


Now we have a little more to discuss about this.

to spend $800 for a gun to shoot cheap ammo is false economics.

That is not how I see it, more like buy 6K rounds and get a free gun. LOL


Here are some links, of course midway is out of stock


http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=265139

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=570493

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?pa...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...d=10001&productId=73942&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...d=10001&productId=72942&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

 

[45B@cav]

To answer the question of if 5.45 is better than 5.56. My answer is no but it is a very effective cartridge. I have a Bulgarian 74 and 3 AR's. I won't make a accuracy comparison because of the difference in AK and AR sights. I would like to have a AR in 5.45 at some point. It is a fun and CHEAP day at the range. I may be a little biased because of my US Army background. IT'S JUST MY OPPINION FROM MY EXPERIENCES. I like the idea of a bolt gun in this chambering.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

The amuunition availability issue become moot to me after 10,000 rounds. The fact that I CAN buy and store 10,000 rounds of ANYTHING right now make the rifle/cartidge practical. To all those who favor the .223, at today's prices, I hope you have enough ammo or components on hand. Available bullets, primers, or ammo are currently a problem. Why not keep your .223, but buy a 5.45 rifle and stash of ammo as an alternative or backup to a cartidge that currently has to be rationed? I have yet to see that the .223 is is clearly superior to the 5.45 in accuracy or performance, given adequate sights on an AK (they are available), or side by side with AR uppers. Anyone have a direct comparison with FMJ military ammo for each, from similar systems?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Here are some links, of course midway is out of stock

Thanks for the links. Standard AR magazines work OK? I notice several of these come with a magazine.


If this takes a different magazine the economics are pretty much gone I think. Not sure if the shorter round will hang up in AR mags.

Who has 5.45x39 at the prices you're talking about?

You have my curiosity up for sure.

 

[Acera]

TexasRifleman I have a question, on another board, about the magazines to a guy that has one. That is one of my concerns also. I think they are AR mags, with a slight mod, but can't be sure.

Prices, I will try to find them again. I looked them up last night, and that was the cheapest. 9mmepiphany seems to be paying $80 to $127 for a 1K case, as stated in his posts earlier in this thread. Best I can find right now, on short notice is $150. So I may have to re do my numbers to account for the extra $30 a case. I don't think it will change it that much.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Russian_5.45x39_FMJ.html

Here is an auction currently at $110 for a little over 1K rounds:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=126148721



Most of the surplus stuff is corrosive ammo, not a problem if you plan on cleaning your rifles. Effects should be lessened with chrome lining. I understand that the Wolf is not corrosive.


Now you can save $125 off my S&W rifle estimate by purchasing it for the buy it now price here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=126130063
(So if count on being able find a rifle cheaper, the increase in ammo price might be a wash.)

Even better rifle deal, no reserve, $925
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=126233662

 

[TexasRifleman]

Found some up on Wideners site.

Wolf around $210/1000 Not bad compared to 5.56, even though a lot higher than the numbers I've seen posted.

http://wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=18|830|851

The magazine issue is what worries me. These are about .2 inches shorter than 5.56.

That seems like it would be enough to screw up function with the standard magazine feed lip.

I searched around for an answer but couldn't find much. This is a very interesting alternate possibility for sure.

ETA: Found a bit on the mag issue.

http://www.gunnuts-tng.com/2008/10/smith-and-wesson-545x39-mp-15r.html

One thing that S&W does caution about are the magazines. While the 5.45 and 5.56 cartridges are dimensionally similar enough that you can feed 5.45 in a standard 5.56 AR magazine, the feed lips and followers are different enough that it is likely that you'll encounter feed jams trying to run the 5.45 through a 5.56 magazine. S&W recommends that you stick with their 5.45 magazines for the M&P-15R.

So, if you gotta buy magazines too, the economics get worse.

Might be better to just buy a 5.45 AK

 

[Acera]

........

 

[Acera]

So, if you gotta buy magazines too, the economics get worse.

So you aren't going to buy mags for the AK? I don't consider that a down side, you can use regular AR mags in a pinch.

But I am noticing that the auction sites have ammo prices all over the board.

The ammo search engine seems to get some consistency at least.


Thanks for a mag article. That is what I am looking for also. Wish more people had these things, and could chime in on a 5.45 AR.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So you aren't going to buy mags for the AK?

Yeah but an AK in 5.45 is in the $450-500 range, the AR uppers are $800.

That leaves you room for $300 of AK magazines, that's a lot

It's still an interesting proposition, simply because of the ammo prices, but it loses some of the drastic savings if the mags don't interchange.

Still hoping to hear from someone with real experience shooting with AR magazines to see if they work at all.

 

[mongo4567]

I got one of the S&W 5.45 ARs when they first came out. I'm very happy with my purchase. I shoot a lot and the rifle fits my needs. I got a bunch of the 5.45 from Century at $110 a tin with free shipping (over $500 order). This Bulgarian surplus has a few duds but it is fine for range shooting. I got some of the Russian surplus last week for IDPA carbine matches, it is $150 a tin. That is $109 per thousand rounds cheaper than the best price I can find on .223; when I can find it. You can find a 5.45 upper for about $600, that price difference on ammo pays for itself quickly.

5.56 mags work just fine with the 5.45 AR, they just load 27 or 28 rounds. The only difference in the mags is a shorter follower in the 5.45.

 

[TexasRifleman]

5.56 mags work just fine with the 5.45 AR, they just load 27 or 28 rounds.

Thanks, that's good information. Since this is for plinking only in my mind an occasional stoppage I could live with, but a misfeed every round wouldn't be worth it.

Running the numbers it does seem like a decent payoff for plinking.

2-3000 rounds and you're even vs equivalent costs of 5.56, that's not bad.

 

[Acera]

TexasRifleman,

I found some 5.45 AR mags.

$20

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/C_Products_AR15_30rd_5.45x39_mag.html