Opinions of a Private Seller Making Copies of ID

[p712k]

What do people think of a private seller requiring a photocopy of a ID/DL when buying a firearm?

I am working out a deal and the seller wants to have one.

I see a couple of problems with this:

1. They seller would have my exact home address, and know that I have at least one firearm in the house (and probably assume that I have more).
2. The seller would have my ID number and DOB.
3. They do not have any legal obligation to store or dispose of the information securely.

This is in Florida, only the ATF regs must be followed, there are no additional state requirements.

I have bought several and sold several firearms FTF and always have just verified that the other party is a resident of my state. A couple of times I have done a simple bill of sale that was simply signed.

The firearm in question is a rifle and is pretty expensive, not something that would be likely to be used in a crime. A criminal could get another gun much cheaper.

I can see a dealer recording your info off of it, they have federal regs to comply with however I don’t see the need for a private seller to have such information.

Maybe I am being overly cautious but this just bothers me.

 

[Wiley]

I would refuse. And if the seller insisted I would walk away from the deal. While I can see some justification on the sellers part, I see no reason to jump thru quasi-legal hoops so that someone I will probably never see again feels comfy.

There is no firearm so rare, valuable, inexpensive that a FTF would require similar paperwork as an FFL sale. And can not be found elsewhere. For me, the whole point of FTF is no paper work.

Bill of sale, maybe. Anything more, no.

 

[Preacherman]

I wouldn't provide one - the risk of identity theft is too great, and even if the seller him/herself is trustworthy, what happens if they lose it? They may certainly look at it, if they want to verify my state of residence, or something like that, but they may not have a copy.

 

[Trebor]

I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I don't think you'd be unreasonable to decline to buy under those circumstances either. The seller is doing what he can to protect himself in the future. If the gun turns up stolen or used in a crime in the future, even years later after you've sold (or it was stolen from you), it is to his advantage to be able to say who he sold it to and what he did to verify that person's identity. If you think that giving him your info opens you up to some risk, that's reasonable and you can walk away and find another seller.

Personally, I make out a bill of sale with the name of the buyer and seller, the model and serial number of the firearm, and the sale price. I also want to look at either the buyer's Concealed Pistol License or Driver's License. I don't record that info, but I want to at least see it. I do want to have a phone number though. Usually I'll have that from earlier correspondance. I make two copies of the bill of sale, sign one and give it to the buyer, and keep the other for myself. I ask the buyer to sign my copy.

Now, if it's a handgun, I HAVE to record the buyer's Concealed Pistol License info on the Michigan State Police RI-60 form that's used in lieu of a purchase permit for CPL holders. If they don't have a CPL, they have to get a purchase permit.

If the firearm is a C&R, I have to get the buyer's C&R license number, if they have one, or other identifying if they don't have one, for my bound book. (My C&R is currently expired, but I doubt I'll be selling any C&R guns before my new license arrives anyway).

 

[dakotasin]

i think the request is unreasonable, and would tell him he could look at my id, but that was it - and if that wasn't good enough, i'd walk away.

giving a perfect stranger a copy of vital personal info just isn't smart, required, or reasonable.

 

[jcims]

As Preacherman states, I would write down everything I'm comfortable giving him (which would be my name and possibly my city/state of residence), and let him visually confirm that information matches what is on my ID. A photocopy of an id isn't going to confirm the authenticity of it, and the only remaining information is all he would need to start getting credit cards in your name.

If that doesn't work, let him copy your Id with some strategically placed electrical tape on it (or, more accurately, strategically placed gaps in electrical tape)

OR, you could say you are concerned that that the gun may have some nefarious history and would like a copy of the seller's ID to ensure that you can find him should the police come knocking.

Probably lots of options if both sides remain reasonable...

 

[CoachVince]

OR, you could say you are concerned that that the gun may have some nefarious history and would like a copy of the seller's ID to ensure that you can find him should the police come knocking.

Probably lots of options if both sides remain reasonable...

Both parties getting info seems good; may discourage him from asking for it at all. I know I've had a problem in the past with selling a car (as have a few other people I know). If you're selling a car dirt cheap, just to be rid of it, get a good look at the buyer's ID. They may drive it for a week, maybe a month, then get in an accident and guess what? They never titled or registered it, so when they ran off, and the cops look up the current owner, it's you.

Not sure that this guy has that idea (that you'll commit a crime with it and it would be traced to him instead), but you could ask what his reasons are, and see how to work together.

 

[mcg-doc]

The only thing on the GA license that is not copied for the firearm sale is height and weight. Therefore, I see know reason not to let them copy my license. However, no one ever tried to do it yet. If you ever test-drove a car, you are well aware that they will want to see your driving license. They always copy them.

 

[AirForceShooter]

I'm in Florida too and as has been noted we do a lot of parking lot selling and it's perfectly legal.
As to the seller wanting to make a copy of your D/L or CCW that's entirely up to the seller. If you don't like it walk away. I've seen sellers that want copies of everything, the bill of sale thing or just a handshake. But the conditions of sale are always up to the seller. If the buyer doesn't like them he gets to say no deal.
Me? I do handshakes and that's it.

AFS

 

[p712k]

Thanks for the info guys, I am going to tell him a simple bill of sale or the deals off. Just our names, cities of residence and that we are both residents of FL.

I thought of getting his info but I do not want to be responsible for having such information about another person.

When I meet someone for a FTF I observe how they look/act/speak, etc. In most cases a crook will look/act/speak like a crook, a nutjob will look/act/speak “nutty”.

If a guy looks like a he is a good guy and he trusts me enough to sell me a firearm I am going to trust him enough to buy it from him.

If I have his signature on a bill of sale and his phone number, along with a general description, plus email correspondence (a LEA/ISP could locate them using the IP of the computer accessing the account) I feel that anything else is excessive.

 

[garrettwc]

I have a friend at work who is having the same problem with a seller in PA. Does PA require an ID to transfer to an an FFL in KY or is it just the FFL that is required?

 

[22-rimfire]

In PA, all legal transfers are through a FFL (including private sales). To my knowledge, private information is only provided to the FFL in state to state transfers. The "liability" is to the FFL holders, hence the fee for service rendered.

My overall feeling about providing personal ID information as part of a private sale is it depends on the seller. Personally, if I am selling a gun and the buyer appears young, I feel better knowing "for sure" that a person is over 18 or 21 by providing drivers license. This openness also suggests that they have nothing to hide legally. I would not ask for a photo copy of a DL or ask permission to make one, nor would I provide one to a private seller.

 

[Merkin.Muffley]

Don't give him this info - a simple bill of sale should suffice. If it doesn't, go somewhere else - there are lots of guns for sale

 

[garrettwc]

I would not ask for a photo copy of a DL or ask permission to make one, nor would I provide one to a private seller.

This is the major sticking point.

Since this would be FFL to FFL and my friend would be going to the gun shop to fill out his 4473 and NCIS before he can pick up, the seller and his FFL would be protected. I have never been asked for ID by anyone other than the person doing my 4473 so I was trying to determine if it was some quirky state law like the FOID in Illinois.

 

[Derby FALs]

When I sell a gun out of state I send a receipt and a copy of my DL for the FFL's boundbook. I don't think it unreasonable to ask for the same treatment.

For FTF I ask for ID to prove residency. If they are comfortable with it I will make out a BOS with both our information.

If you don't feel comfortable with the person you are dealing with then don't do the deal...

 

[JLB]

OK, I',m the seller, so I'll post the reasons why I have done business this way in the past.


#1: To make sure the guy I'm dealing with is of age, and the actual person he says he is.

#2 If I am contacted by law enforcement later on, and the weapon was used in a felony
after I sold it, then I can prove it was not in my possession.

#3 If I am the buyer, and the seller just sold me a hot gun, or one that has been used in a crime, and somebody shows up at my door asking me to prove when I purchased it, and explain how I came by it, I have something more than "I bought it from some guy, and I don't remember who" to cover my own tail.

I've e-mailed the buyer, and I can see why he may be uncomfortable about giving out a copy of his DL, so if we meet, I'll just let him prove he's of legal age, not make any copies of his DL#, and at least have a name on the bill of sale, which he will write up, that I can refer back to.

I'm not trying to collect personal data for other usage, but merely have done this in the past, with no objection from either party, to cover us both.

Our state's law requires even private sellers to be aware of who they are selling to, and the burden is on the seller to make sure that it's not an out of state resident, and that the person is of legal age.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I also understand that this could be a sensitive subject, and we all believe in freedom and the ability to keep our stuff private, but we both have to use common sense when transacting business on a firearm. Common sense is to try and make sure that you don't break the law, and as he said, that can be done without copying a DL, but by merely making sure we both are legal to buy and sell.

The buyer and I will work it out, and I think the minimum info on the bill of sale, such as gun serial #, and name of both buyer and seller (after we have both looked at each other's DL or CCW to verify who we are) is fine with me.

I've also given him references, as I've done hundreds of purchases and sales.

Hope that helps.

 

[buzz_knox]

Our state's law requires even private sellers to be aware of who they are selling to, and the burden is on the seller to make sure that it's not an out of state resident, and that the person is of legal age.

A few years ago, some sellers in Nashville got stung doing private sales without finding out any information about individuals. The individuals were TBI agents, who promptly arrested the sellers.

Most states do put the burden on the seller to be sure they are complying with all applicable laws. The "you've got cash so here's your gun" sales commonly seen are really on the borderline. If I sell a weapon, I want to see a permit (establishing the person has passed a background check and providing a real name) but that's still no guarantee that 1) it's real, 2) it hasn't been revoked or 3) they aren't under one of the myriad prohibitions that would make the sale illegal and me a felon. So, I pretty much stopped selling anything to anyone I didn't know exceedingly well.

 

[JLB]

I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I don't think you'd be unreasonable to decline to buy under those circumstances either. The seller is doing what he can to protect himself in the future. If the gun turns up stolen or used in a crime in the future, even years later after you've sold (or it was stolen from you), it is to his advantage to be able to say who he sold it to and what he did to verify that person's identity. If you think that giving him your info opens you up to some risk, that's reasonable and you can walk away and find another seller.

Personally, I make out a bill of sale with the name of the buyer and seller, the model and serial number of the firearm, and the sale price. I also want to look at either the buyer's Concealed Pistol License or Driver's License. I don't record that info, but I want to at least see it. I do want to have a phone number though. Usually I'll have that from earlier correspondance. I make two copies of the bill of sale, sign one and give it to the buyer, and keep the other for myself. I ask the buyer to sign my copy.

You spelled it out pretty well.

When buying a firearm, both parties are assuming some risk.

If you buy it from a gun shop, you can assume the serial number has been run through, and checked out clean.

When dealing with a stranger, wether you are the buyer or the seller, you don't have the luxury of knowing the gun's history. It may have been owned by 20 people in the past, and have been used in a crime 10 years ago. If it never passed through an ATF check, then you could be put in the position someday of explaining how you came by that firearm to a law enforcement agent. If you are the seller, you don't know where that gun will end up in the future, and how it will be used. Will the buyer use it in a crime? Will he convert it to a machine gun? Who knows?

The prudent thing to do is have something, and it doesn't have to be a copy of a DL, but whatever both of us feel comfortable with, to acknowledge a transfer has taken place, so niether is liable for the other's behavior before, or after that date of sale.

 

[CAS700850]

Last private transaction I did, we executed a document (call it what you want), which listed the name and address of both parties, as well as a statement saying that both sides showed photo I.D.'s to verify the information. Covered teh seller in case I used the gun for illicit purposes, and covered me that the purchase was in good faith in case the gun turned out to be stolen property or have a criminal history. But, the seller was a lawyer i know, and we're both just extra careful that way. And, we had the serial numbers of the gun run through LEADS by an acquaintance, and we also had the document notarized by a third party. We're lawyers. Forgive us.

 

[CentralTexas]

OK, I',m the seller, so I'll post the reasons why I have done business this way in the past.

#1: To make sure the guy I'm dealing with is of age, and the actual person he says he is.

#2 If I am contacted by law enforcement later on, and the weapon was used in a felony
after I sold it, then I can prove it was not in my possession.

#3 If I am the buyer, and the seller just sold me a hot gun, or one that has been used in a crime, and somebody shows up at my door asking me to prove when I purchased it, and explain how I came by it, I have something more than "I bought it from some guy, and I don't remember who" to cover my own tail.

1- What if it's fake ID? Or someone elses? By that logic don't you feel your liability should have been to have a background check done?
What if it's being bought for a criminal or underage person?
2- What if YOU commited a murder yesterdayand buried the body, weeks from now when time of death isn't apparent you have an alibi if the weapon is ever linked (about zero chance but....)
What if YOU have just found out the gun is stolen and the guy you bought it from was just arrested. Are you trying to get a plausible excuse and money in hand so as not to take the loss of the police taking the stolen property?
SO what if the guy that buys it today, has no record at all, perfect boy scout- Tomorrow he kills his whole family, what's your liability? Clue- none.
Just like a drunk buying your car, anyone ever asked for a copy of medical or driving records before a car sale? How many car deaths V. gun deaths per annum here?
3- It's a crime to not remember? What's the worst that will happen then to you?

I understand the paranoia but is it warranted? If it makes you feel better do it but don't expect everyone (us non criminals)to not grouse about it.
Kind of makes you understand what minorities feel like when they enter a store and the salespeople follow them around.
Pet Peeve rant over...
CT

 

[BigRobT]

I did a private sale transaction last November. I wrote a bill of sale and made a copy of his ID. His friend set up the deal and I barely knew his friend. I didn't know this guy at all. Nice guy. Smooth sale, etc. As far as I'm concerned, it's all a "CYA" thing, nothing more. In today's world, one must CYA at all times because without the proper documentation, one's life can be made miserable by our law enforcement. Personally, I don't have the thousands of dollars to waste on lawyers and such, so it's much easier to do it in a legitimate manner from the beginning. BTW, MN requires a "Permit to Purchase" for handguns and those rifles that fall into the "Assault rifle" category. ( I am truly loathing the misnomer, "assault rifle")

 

[Art Eatman]

CentralTexas, it's called a "good faith effort" that you tried to obey any and all laws pertaining to the transaction.

"The guy showed ID, the price was appropriate for the gun, he signed the receipt and my purchase was legal. Whatever else had occurred before the date of the purchase had nothing to do with me." Worst case, then, is that you lose the gun.

Buying a firearm in today's world isn't the same as buying a good, used wheelbarrow...

Art

 

[JLB]

1- What if it's fake ID? Or someone elses? By that logic don't you feel your liability should have been to have a background check done?
What if it's being bought for a criminal or underage person?

There is a portion of the law called the "Prudent Man Test". It holds that all is required of a person is to do what a prudent man would do under the same circumstances.

If I see his DL, thus verifying that he is, to the best of my abilities to judge, the person he says he is, then I have passed "The Prudent Man Test", in that I have done what a prudent man is expected to do.

I do not have to prove he is not breaking the law, but merely prove that I met a minimum standard to follow the law. If his ID is false, then that would not fall on me.

2- What if YOU commited a murder yesterdayand buried the body, weeks from now when time of death isn't apparent you have an alibi if the weapon is ever linked (about zero chance but....)
What if YOU have just found out the gun is stolen and the guy you bought it from was just arrested. Are you trying to get a plausible excuse and money in hand so as not to take the loss of the police taking the stolen property?
SO what if the guy that buys it today, has no record at all, perfect boy scout- Tomorrow he kills his whole family, what's your liability? Clue- none.
Just like a drunk buying your car, anyone ever asked for a copy of medical or driving records before a car sale? How many car deaths V. gun deaths per annum here?

You just spelled out why the buyer should also exercise caution, and cover his own ass, by getting at least the minimum amount of info he feels comfortable asking for, and the seller agrees to give, so that he is covered.

3- It's a crime to not remember? What's the worst that will happen then to you?

After watching Waco burn to the ground, and Randy Weaver's wife being shot, I wonder what is the worst that could happen to you?

Weaver bought, or sold, can't remember, a shotgun that was not legal by less than 1", and he lost his wife and kid by not following the minimum standards of the law.

Now that's an extreme example, but are you going to give the ATF, or some other zealous anti-gun law enforcement officer the opening to ruin your life, just because you sold a gun to a 17 year old, by not doing the minimum that you could do to cover yourself?

I understand the paranoia but is it warranted? If it makes you feel better do it but don't expect everyone (us non criminals)to not grouse about it.
Kind of makes you understand what minorities feel like when they enter a store and the salespeople follow them around.
Pet Peeve rant over...
CT

It's not paranoia, it's common sense.

Know your seller, and know your buyer, or nasty things MAY HAPPEN.

Plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

It's none of his business. I buy from private parties in part because I get tired of having every single purchase in my life shoved into a database. I also try pay the grocery bills in cash -- no one's business if I buy loads of sesame oil and chocolate sauce at the same time...

In your case, the dude can easily verify you're a good guy:

• See that number on your driver's license? The -0 at the end indicates the number of felony convictions on your record. It is a zero, right?
• You've probably got a CCW to match

. If you've got those, it's pretty clear this isn't gonna turn into a "crime gun" unless it's stolen or something.

 

[JLB]

It's none of his business. I buy from private parties in part because I get tired of having every single purchase in my life shoved into a database. I also try pay the grocery bills in cash -- no one's business if I buy loads of sesame oil and chocolate sauce at the same time...

In your case, the dude can easily verify you're a good guy:

• See that number on your driver's license? The -0 at the end indicates the number of felony convictions on your record. It is a zero, right?
• You've probably got a CCW to match

. If you've got those, it's pretty clear this isn't gonna turn into a "crime gun" unless it's stolen or something.

I have no "database", and don't want his personal info. He already has my e-mail & phone number, so I'm not that concerned that I'm in his "database", because I highly doubt he has one either.

All that is needed is visual proof of age and residence, and the serial # of the gun on the bill of sale, plus the date we transact business.

That covers us both, and is what a reasonable buyer or seller would expect.