Opinions of a Private Seller Making Copies of ID

[JLB]

Thanks for the info guys, I am going to tell him a simple bill of sale or the deals off. Just our names, cities of residence and that we are both residents of FL.

And that's all that is needed.

 

[CentralTexas]

There is a portion of the law called the "Prudent Man Test". It holds that all is required of a person is to do what a prudent man would do under the same circumstances.

That proves MY point about the fake ID, YOU have no way of knowing and NO requirement to prove it's fake or that he is lying etc.

It's not paranoia, it's common sense.

Depends on your perspective, how far do we go with "common sense". If we can save one child or avoid one lawsuit shouldn't we outlaw private sales in the name of common sense?

Know your seller, and know your buyer, or nasty things MAY HAPPEN.

No doubt, the Prudent Man can still run afoul and the foolish one may not....
CT

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I have no "database", and don't want his personal info. He already has my e-mail & phone number, so I'm not that concerned that I'm in his "database", because I highly doubt he has one either.

All that is needed is visual proof of age and residence, and the serial # of the gun on the bill of sale, plus the date we transact business.

That covers us both, and is what a reasonable buyer or seller would expect.

Yep. But that's not what the seller in the original post wanted, is it?

 

[JLB]

Yep. But that's not what the seller in the original post wanted, is it?

I e-mailed him a suggestion, not a requirement.

Just because I have done business a certain way over the years, does not mean I am not willing to compromise with somebody else, who wishes to do it a different way, as long as we both are comfortable.

His minimum standard is fine with me.

 

[CentralTexas]

All that is needed is visual proof of age and residence, and the serial # of the gun on the bill of sale, plus the date we transact business.
That covers us both, and is what a reasonable buyer or seller would expect.

If you are aware that 100% of the time you cannot tell a persons age by looking, you have failed your "Prudent Man " test.
The residence on a drivers license doesn't mean a person lives there either. All I am saying is these things may make you feel good but in most scenarios aren't worth the effort.
Plaintiff's attorney-"Why didn't you ask the decedent his intentions for the use of the military style assault weapon you sold him"?
Defendant-"Well I asked for his ID and he was a legal buyer"
Plaintiff's attorney-"Did you not realize he had mental issues going back 20 years, drug addiction issues with five assault charges also, how was he a legal buyer?"
If they want to sue you they will, if the Government needs you to be guilty you are....
CT
CT

 

[JLB]

There is a portion of the law called the "Prudent Man Test". It holds that all is required of a person is to do what a prudent man would do under the same circumstances.

That proves MY point about the fake ID, YOU have no way of knowing and NO requirement to prove it's fake or that he is lying etc.

Correct, l I only have to prove that I tried to follow the law, and if he broke it, it is not my liability.

It's not paranoia, it's common sense.

Depends on your perspective, how far do we go with "common sense". If we can save one child or avoid one lawsuit shouldn't we outlaw private sales in the name of common sense?

You do business your way, and I'll do business mine.

If you are comfortable not getting ID from the 17 year old kid the ATF sends to you in a parking lot to frame you, then you will still have your principles in prison.

Know your seller, and know your buyer, or nasty things MAY HAPPEN.

No doubt, the Prudent Man can still run afoul and the foolish one may not....
CT

I said "Prudent Man" gives you a leg to stand on, not wins against the government's case against you. Having nothing to stand on gets your gun rights taken away when you are convicted.

 

[JLB]

If you are aware that 100% of the time you cannot tell a persons age by looking, you have failed your "Prudent Man " test.

I'll be checking his age on his DL, or seeing a CCW permit to prove he's of age, not just by looking at him.

The residence on a drivers license doesn't mean a person lives there either. All I am saying is these things may make you feel good but in most scenarios aren't worth the effort.

Afgain, the Prudent Man Standard does not require me to go to his house and see him living there, but merely see a state form of ID. If he lied and moved to Georgia last week, that is not my liability.

Plaintiff's attorney-"Why didn't you ask the decedent his intentions for the use of the military style assault weapon you sold him"?
Defendant-"Well I asked for his ID and he was a legal buyer"
Plaintiff's attorney-"Did you not realize he had mental issues going back 20 years, drug addiction issues with five assault charges also, how was he a legal buyer?"
If they want to sue you they will, if the Government needs you to be guilty you are....
CT
CT

The law does not require me to prove he is mentally stable, but forbids him from buying if he is not.

Again, not my liability.

 

[liberty911]

A copy of a DL/ID is one thing. A right of privacy does not attach. Most of the information, aside from the actual DL number is available i nthe phone book. I would have no problem, but would want a copy of the sellers in return. When you get into personal information, SSN, tax records, banking records, I would refuse.

 

[Soybomb]

Absolutely not if not required by law. Everyone always takes about unnecessary gun laws and regulations and here is a bunch of people making up laws and rules to follow that don't exist. My drivers license information is not something I want a stranger to have. If you're that terrified of selling a gun to an individual, you can pay the $20 and we'll do it through a FFL.

 

[gc70]

I think a simple bill of sale with the buyer and seller's names, addresses, and phone numbers is good enough for documentation, although it is also prudent to look at ID. Heck, that kind of documentation is what I would expect if I bought a major home applicance, so why should it be any different for a gun?

 

[taliv]

man, i wish i knew someone who committed a felony so i could look at the last digit on their driver's license.

learn something every day...

 

[JLB]

man, i wish i knew someone who committed a felony so i could look at the last digit on their driver's license.

learn something every day...

That is good info to know.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I e-mailed him a suggestion, not a requirement.

Just because I have done business a certain way over the years, does not mean I am not willing to compromise with somebody else, who wishes to do it a different way, as long as we both are comfortable.

His minimum standard is fine with me.

Ah - noticed your defensiveness and went back and read the thread. Turns out you are the seller. Cool.

I'm not saying "this is how things need to be," I'm just stating what I think is a reasonable intrusion into my life. If I buy a car from you I can understand your desire to make sure I register it in my name in case I do a hit and run or something, and I'll play along and make sure you know all the paperwork has been taken care of. But that doesn't mean I'll let you take a copy of my driver's license, insurance card, and the new paperwork for the automobile -- that's going beyond the "I just wanna be safe" standard.

Same thing here. You're selling me a firearm? I'll point out that I'm not a felon (easy to verify in Florida, as I've pointed out) and that the state thinks I'm responsible enough to carry concealed (meaning I've passed a minimum qualification test and a cursory background check). I'll show you the state documents making this clear, and will pay you with cash or a USPS money order if that's your preference. Doesn't mean I'll sign the money order, but there 'ya go.

And yeah, you can print the PM or e-mail setting up the sale or whatever -- for the most part I don't care. But you don't get to go any further than the "just wanted to make sure you're not a bad dude -- thanks for appeasing my conscience" stage. You want a copy of my driver's license, CCW, and maybe umbrella policy showing I've got $2 million + coverage in case I shoot a "disenfranchised youth" who's breaking into my house at o'dark'thirty (you can't be too safe after all -- you could be sued!)? Nope.

You get to verify I'm not a bad dude. Require more than that I'll buy from (or sell to) someone else. I don't keep records of firearm purchases or sales (ownership records are different), and part of this is covering my ass. You might remember the posts of one of our members who was "required" to surrender his AR to the state police during the Maryland Sniper shootings a couple of years back. I don't care to play that game, thanks -- I might or might not have purchased an AR pattern rifle from a private party, it might or might not have sucked, and I might or might not have resold it to buy something I wanted more, or I might or might not have used that acetelene torch to melt the receiver down into that carbon-steel shovel blade over there in a fit of poetic license inverting the phrase "plowshares into swords" in a blissninny mood 3 weeks ago.

That's how I handle firearm purchases, or anything else that might raise someone's eyebrows in the future. It sounds like we won't be buying and selling from each other, and that's OK. We understand where each other is coming from, and that avoids future confusion.

 

[JLB]

Ah - noticed your defensiveness and went back and read the thread. Turns out you are the seller. Cool.

I'm not being defensive, merely stating what the law requires, and my reasons for my preferences.

I'm not saying "this is how things need to be," I'm just stating what I think is a reasonable intrusion into my life. If I buy a car from you I can understand your desire to make sure I register it in my name in case I do a hit and run or something, and I'll play along and make sure you know all the paperwork has been taken care of. But that doesn't mean I'll let you take a copy of my driver's license, insurance card, and the new paperwork for the automobile -- that's going beyond the "I just wanna be safe" standard.

And if you feel it's too much to get, or give a DL copy, then that's fine with me.

I've stated in this thread that it's not something I would require from him, but just what I have doen inthe past, with no objections, ever.

Same thing here. You're selling me a firearm? I'll point out that I'm not a felon (easy to verify in Florida, as I've pointed out) and that the state thinks I'm responsible enough to carry concealed (meaning I've passed a minimum qualification test and a cursory background check). I'll show you the state documents making this clear, and will pay you with cash or a USPS money order if that's your preference. Doesn't mean I'll sign the money order, but there 'ya go.

You've just met my minimum standard.

If I see your DL, or a CCW, then you have proven you are of age, and not a felon.

I do get USPS money orders when dealing with out of staters, as if they stiff me, it's mail fraud, and then I can sic a Postal Inspector on them, but out of state is different.

And yeah, you can print the PM or e-mail setting up the sale or whatever -- for the most part I don't care. But you don't get to go any further than the "just wanted to make sure you're not a bad dude -- thanks for appeasing my conscience" stage. You want a copy of my driver's license, CCW, and maybe umbrella policy showing I've got $2 million + coverage in case I shoot a "disenfranchised youth" who's breaking into my house at o'dark'thirty (you can't be safe after all -- you could be sued!)? Nope.

Didn't ask for that, merely the minimum standard.

You get to verify I'm not a bad dude. Beyond that I'll buy from (or sell to) someone else. I don't keep records of firearm purchases or sales (ownership records are different), and part of this is covering my ass. You might remember the posts of one of our members who was "required" to surrender his AR to the state police during the Maryland Sniper shootings a couple of years back. I don't care to play that game, thanks -- I might or might not have purchased an AR pattern rifle from a private party, it might or might not have sucked, and I might or might not have resold it to buy something I wanted more, or I might or might not have used that acetelene torch to melt the receiver down into that carbon-steel shovel blade over there in a fit of poetic license inverting the phrase "plowshares into swords" in a blissninny mood 3 weeks ago.

That's how I handle firearm purchases, or anything else that might raise someone's eyebrows in the future. It sounds like we won't be buying and selling from each other, and that's OK. We understand where each other is coming from, and that avoids future confusion.

It's a free country, so we can deal as we choose.

You can trust that the other guy is 18 and a legal buyer, or you can verify it.

One way covers you, the other does not.

I prefer to get a minimum amount of info, so I'm covered, when buying or selling.

I think it's common sense, but the only opinions that matter are those of the two transacting business.

 

[1KPerDay]

That is good info to know.

It's also BS. The last number on my licence is 5. I have never committed any misdemeanors nor felonies.

Maybe it's different in other states, but it sounds like hogwash to me.

 

[JLB]

It's also BS. The last number on my licence is 5. I have never committed any misdemeanors nor felonies.

Maybe it's different in other states, but it sounds like hogwash to me.

I'm suprised you gave out the last digit of your DL# on the net.

People are watching!

 

[pete f]

First of all. My Dl # ends in a 9 and I have never been arrested, never mind convicted of a crime. That might be Georgia's way of doing things it is not everywhere.

When I sell a firearm, I require a copy of the guys DL. I buy and sell all the time and when I do it, I get a form I have made out that lists the firearm, the serial number, anything specific about and/or any accessories that went with it and the price. I also have a statement at the bottom that says he as buyer is buying a firearm that he is not legally prevented from buying. I copy His and My DL to the form and then he gets one copy and I get one copy and I put it in the safe. MANY years ago i did not have a home copier but I did have a a good receipt with accurate info. I got a knock on the door at 1AM and was asked about a revolver I had sold a couple of years before. It was found in a shooting. Retrieving my info I was able to show the cops I had sold it before. I also provided them with the address of the guy who was shown to have shot in self defense but ran away scared. If you are worried tell him you will let him copy it as long as he lets you hide the DL # If the cops come knocking having every thing else will make finding you a snap and it should allevitate the fear of ID theft.

 

[1KPerDay]

I'm suprised you gave out the last digit of your DL# on the net.

People are watching!

LOL I was going to say something like that but I figured I'd let someone else do it.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

My comment on DL numbers was strictly with regard to Florida. Live in Florida? Quick check: who's got something other than '0' after the hyphen in the DL number?

 

[Lupinus]

they get to see my ID, I wont give them a copy of all the info on it

If they insist and you really want it do the deal I'd reccomend this-
Take the license photo copy it. Then take the copy and white out all the info you don't want him to have (number, address, etc) basicly just leave your full name and DOB. Then take the copy with white out and make a copy of it. If he wont accept that walk away.

 

[saberstitch]

Depending on what gun I wish to sell, I may ask have to ask for a driver's license and record the number. I recently sold a yugo sks and a M1 Garand. I have a C&R license and have to put the license number and birth date of the buyer in my bound book. If a person refuses to give me that info, then I can't sell to them.

 

[wdlsguy]

Here is the information the ATF recommends recording on their Personal Firearms Record:

Manufacturer/Importer, Model, Serial Number, Type and Action, Caliber or Gauge, Date Acquired, Cost, Purchase Location (Name and Address). Sounds like a good list for a bill of sale.

If the buyer and seller aren't comfortable exchanging names and addresses maybe they shouldn't be doing business?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

photocopy of a ID/DL

For a private sale, given the problem of Identity Theft, the answer
is NO photo copies of ID / DL to private sellers. FFL and CRL must
follow law.

Private seller might see the DL for proof of age or residency, but
no photocopy.

Both buyer and seller should get a bill of sale type receipt JIC.
But no numbers that could be used for ID theft.

 

[CentralTexas]

That is good info to know.

Is that all states????

 

[CentralTexas]

Here is the information the ATF recommends recording on their Personal Firearms Record:

Manufacturer/Importer, Model, Serial Number, Type and Action, Caliber or Gauge, Date Acquired, Cost, Purchase Location (Name and Address). Sounds like a good list for a bill of sale.

If the buyer and seller aren't comfortable exchanging names and addresses maybe they shouldn't be doing business?

Now why would the ATF suggest that?
CT