Opinions on .22lr for defense

[dhoomonyou]

22lr is weak for self defense.

With that said, a 22lr in your hand when the SHTF is better than the 45 sitting in a drawer.

I have and love a Smith & Wesson 317 kit gun.
8 rounds of 22lr out of a 3 inch barrel. It also comes as a snubby.
I paid $425 2 years ago in South Florida.
Shoots any and every round I put in it. I put 50 CCI stingers into a 3 inch group at 7 yards.

Encourage her, Once she builds up confidence/proficiency with it maybe she will go for something larger.

Let us know.

 

[JohnKSa]

My only caveat would be to have a plan, if the display of your weapon doesn't have the desired effect.

Sure--but that applies REGARDLESS of your caliber choice. I've heard horror stories about failures to stop in virtually every common caliber including .357 Mag and .45ACP.

Remember, I'm not ADVOCATING or RECOMMENDING THE 22, just saying that if we look at how handguns are typically used in self-defense, it becomes clear that caliber is rarely a factor since shooting is rarely necessary.

Personally, I would be far more afraid of a 100lb woman with a .22 revolver than I would be of a cop with a shotgun. The cop is going to do everything in his power to avoid shooting and has many non-shooting options as well as backup. The woman has virtually no reason to not shoot and not many options for resolving the situation without shooting. A small woman shooting a large male in TX? The cops won't even ask her any questions while they're cleaning her gun for her, reloading it and patting her on the back.

 

[Tacoma]

A nice model 34/63 will allow you to get her comfortable with a revolver (start with CB logs and work up). When she's ready, move her right into a mod 36/60 in 38. That's the joy of J frames. FWIW, my 34 will group 3" @50 with stingers. I would NOT want to be on the receaving end of that gun in trained hands.

 

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

How much more recoil would .22 lr produce from the same handgun as .32 H&R mag?

I ask because AFAIK Ruger makes or has made the SP-101 in both. Starting a novice out on a rented .22 SP and then moving them along to the .32 HR SP might be a way to encourage someone who is recoil sensitive to move to a larger caliber.

 

[Elmer]

Personally, I would be far more afraid of a 100lb woman with a .22 revolver than I would be of a cop with a shotgun. The cop is going to do everything in his power to avoid shooting and has many non-shooting options as well as backup. The woman has virtually no reason to not shoot and not many options for resolving the situation without shooting. A small woman shooting a large male in TX? The cops won't even ask her any questions while they're cleaning her gun for her, reloading it and patting her on the back.

__________________

Not sure if the crooks think it through that well. A cop actually has more latitude to shoot in most cases. Either way, I agree that caliber is irrelevant when it comes to mindset. It's just something that many don't think about. I get nervous when people talk about threatening someone with a gun, or just "racking that 870" and expecting that the bad guy is going to run away.

Hasn't been my experience.....

 

[JohnKSa]

Elmer,

You're in a slightly different situation than a crime victim. A person confronted by or confronting a cop KNOWS the cop is armed--they know that they're involved in a situation that includes firearms. If firearms were going to deter them, they would ALREADY be deterred, so to speak.

Since they're expecting guns to be part of the incident, producing one or pointing it at them isn't a surprise to them, and it's much less likely to produce flight or immediate cooperation. If firearms were going to make them run or cooperate, they'd ALREADY be running/cooperating since they knew up front that firearms were involved.

But a criminal doesn't expect his victims to be armed. When a victim produces a firearm, ANY firearm, that calls for an immediate reevaluation of cost vs benefit. The unexpected firearm now needs to be factored into the situation and the result is almost always flight or cooperation.

I don't have the documentation in front of me, but I recall someone publishing the results of a series of interviews of convicts. Invariably they claimed that they were more afraid of armed citizens than they were of police. Perhaps they feel the citizens are more unpredictable... Don't know.

 

[Elmer]

I don't disagree. I just think so much is made of the intimidation value of a gun, that some will not have a plan "B"........

Anybody teaching someone to protect themselves should stress the need to be ready to use it if they point it.

 

[JohnKSa]

Anybody teaching someone to protect themselves should stress the need to be ready to use it if they point it.

I agree 100%.

 

[gunhog1950]

mixed messages/ the thruth is

:banghead: The 22 lr is deadly . yes more so than a 25/32 ACP. as the 22 will bounce around inside and do more damage.So the bad guy is dead.???? The idea of carrying a gun is not to kill bad guys its' to keep them from killing you. Let that soak in for a minute. the chances of surviving a confrontation with an armed felon is to stop him ,"BANG PLOP" One shot stops would be nice ,if they were a reality. that don't always happen even with a 45ACP. Remember the idea is to keep them from killing you. which means the faster they are put out of commission the less danger to your body. If putting six rds of 22lr into the felon while he continuse to keep coming and cuts your throat meets your needs go for it. I would not send my wife out with less than a Bersa 380 , a 9mm/38spl. would be even better. Remmebr she must be of the mind set that she will use the weapon. the idea of scareing away the bad guy today doesn't work. If hes' armed when show your gun you best be in a fear for your life and be shooting.because the sight of your weapon just forced his hand.any thoughts of not shooting you just went south when you pulled equal force to his. This is just food for thought. You Decide.

 

[JohnKSa]

The idea is not to "scare someone off with a gun", that's a recipe for disaster.

I'm not advocating that people bluff with their firearms--I'm just saying that pulling out a firearm resolves the situation immediately with no shots fired in the vast majority of cases.

There's a difference in OBSERVING what happens based on interviews and studies and ASSUMING that's whats going to happen.

I'm NOT saying one should BANK on no shots being required to end a confrontation. I'm just saying that studies show that is what happens in the vast majority of cases.

Furthermore, even when a shot is required, it's rarely necessary to actually disable the criminal with the shot. THAT'S MOVIE STUFF. Most of the time a person who has been shot immediately ceases to be a threat and either runs or begins begging for medical attention. Am I saying that we should COUNT on that happening--NO! I'm only saying that is the most likely outcome by far.

In general, self-defense experts (and internet commandos) like to focus on the cases where a determined criminal has to be virtually shot to pieces while totally ignoring the fact that those situations are extremely rare.

Bottom line:

If someone won't carry anything but a .22LR, LET THEM. Give them the facts but if they're not swayed, quit ragging on them. Don't spend time trying to shake their confidence in their chosen weapon. Encourage them to practice.

Because odds are the gun will do its job without ever firing a shot.

Because if the person DOES have to shoot, even a .22LR can stop a criminal dead in his tracks with a single shot if the bullet goes where it needs to.

And because my suspicion is that there are a heck of a lot of people out there who would be far better off if they were armed with a .22 pistol instead of the high-caliber little monster they carry but can't shoot worth a hoot.

 

[autospike]

Eh... Stupid question...

But it's my first post, so be gentle

Slaphappy, since your wife loves the P22, can you get someone to let her shoot a P99 in 9mm?

She might find that she can manage the recoil
and
then we can all forget about whether or not the .22 is a suitable carry round

 

[gunhog1950]

Yes and NO

" Furthermore, even when a shot is required, it's rarely necessary to actually disable the criminal with the shot. THAT'S MOVIE STUFF. Most of the time a person who has been shot immediately ceases to be a threat and either runs or begins begging for medical attention. Am I saying that we should COUNT on that happening--NO! I'm only saying that is the most likely outcome by far.

In general, self-defense experts (and internet commandos) like to focus on the cases where a determined criminal has to be virtually shot to pieces while totally ignoring the fact that those situations are extremely rare."

Your quote above is more true than not,but if forced into the use of deadly force common sense will require, as most training, that you can't shoot one shot and hope for your assaliant to run,or ask for an ambulance. GOD willing I never need to fire upon another for defense of my life or family,But if the need would be thrown into my face ,I'm putt'n two or three into the boiler room.Better he than me. I remember, I think it was the ILL. State police .When they first started using 9mm s put something like 18 rds into a hopped up biker while he returned fire with his 38 like they were shooting around him, they changed Ammo soon after. A 22lr is better then nothing, but only a litte.

 

[JShirley]

The firearm should be produced as part of the draw stroke (presentation).

Once the firearm is presented, it should be used, which is why it was brought out. The only reason for not using it, would be if the attacker ceased aggressive action mid-draw.

John

 

[Elmer]

The firearm should be produced as part of the draw stroke (presentation).

Once the firearm is presented, it should be used, which is why it was brought out. The only reason for not using it, would be if the attacker ceased aggressive action mid-draw.

John

Good tactical and legal advice. In most jurisdictions that I'm aware of, unless you are justified in using deadly force, you can't threaten deadly force, and pointing a gun is threatening deadly force.

In general, self-defense experts (and internet commandos) like to focus on the cases where a determined criminal has to be virtually shot to pieces while totally ignoring the fact that those situations are extremely rare."

So we should train for and expect the best scenario?

 

[sm]

Like Preacherman -I too have assisted with folks with physical limits on what they can use for self defense.

Reliability is paramount with any firearm, ammo and magazines. We found what the particular guns were reliable with, and best with POA/POI . Shot placement requires these along with shooter doing the BA/UU/ R , and training .

We started with larger reactive targets, and worked to smaller targets, we were serious, no harm in serious fun playing "golf" with a tennis ball, then later use a golf ball. This also allowed some to gain some training in moving wheelchairs, to "scoot and shoot".

As I have mentioned before - I was not yet a Teenager when I used a .22 revolver to stop an immediate threat when the front door was brick-batted in, and I had 3 younger sibs to protect.

Rule 1 - have a gun.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The traditional Rule 1 is too vague and people feel that it is justification for carrying crap. Rule 1 should be to have a reliable gun in the largest caliber the person can conceal and shoot well.

Sure a .22 is the hand is better than a .45 in the night stand, but if you are going to pickup a gun, don't be a moron. You grab the .45 first, NOT THE .22!

Remember, "better than nothing" is the WRONG criterion against which to choose self defense gear to protect your life and the lives of loved ones.

 

[JohnKSa]

I really don't think I've been unclear but I'll give it another shot.

Am I advocating the use of .22LR for self defense? NO!

Am I saying that .22LR is as good as a 9mm? NO!

Am I advocating choosing a .22LR over a .45ACP if a person will/can use either one? NO!

Am I advocating pulling a gun out and waiting to see if the criminal runs? NO!

Am I advocating shooting once and then waiting to see what happens? NO!

Am I advocating that people train for or expect the best case scenario? NO!

Am I saying that we should count on a criminal giving up without a shot fired? NO!

Am I saying that we should count on a criminal giving up after being hit once even if it's not a serious wound? NO!

Am I saying that a .22LR is a great weapon for self-defense scenarios? NO!

Am I saying that it's common for people to pull a gun and have a criminal immediately give up or run before they can shoot? Yes. Is that my opinion? No. It's a fact.

Am I saying that it's common for a criminal to give up after being shot a single time even if the caliber is insignificant and the shot isn't fatal or disabling? Yes. Is that my opinion? No. It's a fact.

Am I saying that a .22LR can stop a criminal attack with a single well-placed shot? Yes. Is that my opinion? No. It's a fact.

So, I'll say it one more time. If a person can't or won't use anything but a .22LR, LET THEM. Don't try to shake their confidence in their firearm. Don't continually rag on them to "upgrade". Encourage them to practice with it as much as possible. Take some peace of mind in the realization that the vast majority of criminal attacks that are SUCCESSFULLY repelled with a firearm DON'T require the defender to actually disable or kill the criminal. Take further peace of mind that a person who is well trained with a .22LR IS capable of successfully repelling a criminal attack if necessary. Even capable of disabling or killing the criminal if necessary. Even capable of dropping him in his tracks if necessary.

Don't tell them to expect that they won't have to shoot, don't tell them to train assuming they won't have to shoot, don't tell them their choice is as good as a 9mm, don't tell them it's as good as a .45, don't tell them to simply threaten with their firearm, don't tell them to shoot once and wait to see what happens. Don't tell them anything but the truth.

BUT don't tell them anything beyond the truth either! Telling someone that a .22LR is ineffective in self-defense scenarios is absolutely NOT TRUE. It certainly can be and certainly has been used to good effect. Less than ideal is not the same as ineffective. And, as we SHOULD all know by now, ANY firearm CAN be effective in a self-defense scenario for the reasons I have pointed out more than once on this thread.

 

[JShirley]

Y'all preachin' to the choir over heah, but I'll give you an "amen!"

John

 

[Mr Jody Hudson]

Right On and AMEN again...

Also: Hypnogator I have been recently in communication with a fellow who is fond of the TPH and wants to get one but is still researching it.

He is also wanting to write a spy play that includes a spy with a TPH. I have been helping him with some research.

I have suggested that he write to you and read this thread.

All the best to you all folks. This is a great thread and a good discussion!

 

[The_Shootist]

.22LR for SD?

WELL - I guess you can buy a Beretta Cheetah 87. A .22 LR chambered semi-auto as big as a REAL chambering if you are looking for threat appeal . (ie - in a dim light it looks like a .380 or 9mm calibre)

Should it come down to actual use, 8 rds of Stinger or Aquila Super Max quickly delivered (and the Cheetah...despite how dubiously reliable .22 is..will do so) is likely to change somebody's mind about evil intent

 

[GEM]

Only if it's all you have and/or you cannot handle anything better due to infirmity.

That being said as a decision principle, can it get the job done? Probably will as compared to not. By this, I mean:

1. Will it have a high probablity of deterrence?
2. If you shoot the guy will he probably stop the bad thing?

Perhaps, if in a rare set of cases where you don't deter and you do shoot him righteously, there are some cases where the BG still gets you. But that happens with other rounds.

So go back to my first point - get a better one. If you only have a Ruger Bearcat or a Ruger 10/22 or a NAA Mini - shoot him with that!!

 

[Onmilo]

I'll say this again.
A fistful of pebbles to the face beats a clean miss with a large rock every time.

 

[Lupinus]

Go with a .32. It is a lot better then a .22lr for defense and still light in recoil and easy to manage.

 

[lbmii]

Lot of people in the ground from a 22 pistol. Same with the 25 auto and the various 32s like the 32 S&W, 32 short Colt and so on and so on.

Don't ever play down the danger or lethality of firearms.

 

[MCgunner]

oh jee this thread again lol.

OK, this is speaking from experience, as I dont have federal charges on me (thank god).
I had a situation involving my wife, her cousin, and the perp. My wife was speaking rather harshly to an individual (the perp) who "ganged" along w/ a couple of buddies her brother. They left him for dead i guess you could say. So she had a few words for this guy. He was clearly getting high on marijuana and god knows what else. Drinking also. We just got back from town which btw is about 95 miles away getting supplies. I always carry on this trip. I heard my wife stearnly chatting with this individual.

He was sitting there until her cousin also heard the goings on. They wanted the person to leave property as it was also my wife's moms place. Long story why he was getting high there, as he is an aquaintence of my sister in laws boyfriend. So my wifes cousin opened the door and asked the individual to get out of the vehicle. He complied. He the punched my wife's cousin, knocking him out for a few seconds or minutes it was all too fast. at that time I pulled out. He flicked a lit cigarette at my wife, I racked the slide, turned the laser on, and had my p22 aimed on his face. before he could do anything else but ask what was that on him, he was informed that it was a gun. I told him to get down.

He looked at me seen I had the pistol pointed at him. He then panicked and ran away, really crazy in some sort of ducking while running.

The p22 did in fact do its intended job. It protected my family. And although I didnt have to fire a shot. The mere intimidation of the laser and the pistol pointed at him prevented any more of a crime.

I thank god every day that my wife was not harmed. I also am glad that I had my pistol at that time. I usually dont carry here in my small town, its just the fact that we were just coming back from town and dropping items off at my wife's mothers house. I am glad we didnt go home first as my wife would have just went out there first.

So in this case, a .22lr did in fact prove itself for self defense.

A week later, I purchased my walther p99 in .40 SW
If I have to shoot someone in self defense or the preservation of life of my family. I want my shots to count. This is why the main reason I picked up my p99. I was just going to leave it in lay away so I could slowly pay on it throughout the summer.

Thank God for the second amendment.

Jeez, I tuned in to hear the .45 freak humor and I get a friggin' soap opera! :banghead: ROFL!