Opinions on cheek riser

[The 3D Warrior]

I did not see any rules against this type of post so I hope it is ok and in the right section. If not please let me know so I can correct it. I am not selling anything yet and when I do I will make sure to go through the right channels.

Let me start by telling you about me and why this venture came about. I have been shooting one firearm or another as long as I can remember. Started on the Ruger Blackhawk single six and progressed through the years to AK, AR, larger revolvers, full sized semi autos, pocket pistols, lever actions, pumps, and so on. While I have not shot or owned every firearm I may have used each type at some point.

This brings me to my current and newest rifle. A Savage Stealth Evolution in 6.5 Creedmoor. Great rifle that impressed me right out of the box. My only issue is that the max height on the adjustable cheek rest was about a 1/4 inch low from contact with my cheek and about 1/2 inch from a solid cheek position. I searched the web and found others with the same complaint, some with home made mods to make it work, and a few cheek risers that just didn't fit my need. What I could find was a small 1/4 to 3/8 increase. That leaves the stock maxed out and no room for adjustment later should I swap rings or get a bigger scope. I started to brainstorm ideas to get a 1 inch rise which puts the adjustment of the stock to about halfway, leaving plenty of adjustability either direction. For me this was perfect but then I though others might want the same thing in an easy to install modification that is totally reversable with no permanent modifaction to the factory stock. I am looking at the prospect of using this to start a business and have ideas to expand the types of products I offer, this is just the first of hopefully many.

One of my other hobbies is 3D printing..... I bet you can see where this is going. I have designed and produced a cheek riser in a few variations to display what they look like. The prototypes are in a basic plastic that is plenty strong but not as heat resistant, can warp in a hot vehicle, so the final product will be done in a material that can handle the heat without warping, like ABS, PETG, or maybe even carbon fiber if there is a desire for it.

The risers pictured are on a Magpul PRS Gen 3, I do have a Gen 2 as well as a Magpul UBR that I can use to make risers for. They are all currently 24mm to 26mm in the amount of rise they provide. The full saddle one is the heaviest by about 3 times the weight. If there is enough interest I can skeletonize that one as well. The shorter ones without the legs (might be a LT. Dan series) can all be canted to the left or right for the shooters preference. The textured model looks rougher than it really is but gives a nice look. Right now it is all offered in black but other colors are possible if demand is there. These are stuck on using a strong 3m double sided tape, I am looking at using an automotive grade but the current tape hold really well.

Please give me your feedback and critique on what you would like to see changed. Other model stocks you would like to see risers made for. What heights would you like to see? Would carbon fiber interest you or just an ABS type material? Which models would you buy? Lastly, about how much would you expect to pay for something like this?

I apologize for the long post but hopefully I answered more questions than I am asking. Thank you for your help.

 

[Varminterror]

We’ve been making these out of various polymers for at least 22 years - as I learned it from the old-man gunsmith I apprenticed under as a teen that long ago. 3D printing is a new twist for manufacturing method, but a glue or screw on block of polymer used as a cheek riser is nothing new. Do your market research and you’ll quickly see what’s out there to compete against. There’s plenty of room for you in the market, as long as you deliver quality products and operate your business with customer satisfaction at the forefront.

The headache I see for you currently - you’re marketing custom products for proprietary designs - if you’re making custom printed products to fit Magpul products, licensing and marketing may be an insurmountable hurdle. It won’t stop you from selling through Etsy or Ebay, Shapeways, or other relatively grey market options where you might enjoy reasonable sales while also enjoying some anonymity without officially licensing. Doing this “above board” with legally licensed design and marketing rights is more of a challenge.

One particular feature drawback I personally see in your product is adjustability, or rather lack thereof. For a stock which is already adjustable, such as the Magpul PRS you have pictured, this is moot, but for a fixed comb like the UBR and the VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR POTENTIAL FUTURE CUSTOMERS WHICH NEED ADJUSTMENT ON A FIXED COMB STOCK your product is just a brick, such it can’t be adjusted - at least not without full cost replacement. In the market, alternatively, the Victor Company Universal cheek riser uses interlocking shims to allow incremental user adjustment to suit varying optic heights above fixed combs. So two questions you need to ask yourself - 1) why would your non-adjustable product be favorable over a customers adjustable riser? And conceding the answer to the first question is “it isn’t,” then the second question becomes 2) how can you adapt your design to allow for adjustability. Another example here, in addition to the Victor Company product, is the snap on “riser kits” which have been offered for carbine stocks by various companies for ~20 yrs, such as Command Arms, which come with multiple height risers in a single kit. Fab has multi-layered risers available for their stocks as well.

Admittedly I’d love to add some rise to my beloved UBR stocks, but curious how you’re solving the issue with the reciprocating charger on the fixed comb. (Reference Larue RISR).

Solve all of these, and figure out how your business doesn’t infringe in design or marketing, and you might have something.

 

[Varminterror]

I’m also curious as to why you’re using such high rings on your Savage. That appears to be a driving force for needing additional cheek rise, but knowing these rifles, I’m not sure I understand why you have the scope so high, creating this problem.

 

[Varminterror]

And to your specific prototyping questions:

Skeletonized looks weak and will be an opportunity for unwanted stuff to get somewhere it should not. Since you are 3D printing, make it strong enough to be dropped without cracking or deforming, even using internal structures, and enclose the ends. Otherwise, make it solid.

There’s also probably a market of tacticool Tims who would buy a riser with a battery drawer...

Texture should match what we see in market - relatively smooth, but not polished slick.

Legs vs. no legs - it needs to be sufficiently long around the sides to ensure the adhesive isn’t the only thing from preventing it from slipping. I run my face into my stock thousands and thousands of times per year, and often use considerable cheek weld pressure - lace on stock pads and packs tend to roll, and I have pushed more than one adhesive secured polymer riser out of place, to the point of refusing to use adhesives to secure my risers, ever (so I wouldn’t be a customer for you, even though I use many cheek risers, just due to the attachment method). Legless means another seam, and personally, as a man with an ample beard AND as a man who doesn’t want my rifles to look like cobbled together crap, I don’t like the look of the seams. You also lose adhesion surface area, so I’m a full leg voter. If you want to add positive or negative cast options, design that offering (I’m betting it will not be a high seller for you, and honestly, a waste of time).

As addressed above, you need to develop a means of adjustability. Snapping together, dovetailing, whatever, but they need to be adjustable. 1/8” increments, or 3/16”. 1/4” increments will leave too many guys still fighting their riser. This DOES complicate your life as you try to adapt the legs to fit over an existing riser saddle. What appears to be a glue-on design also makes adjustment a pain.

Knowing your competition in the market, you’d probably do well selling this for $14.99-19.99, but I would personally avoid a “dude with a 3D Printer brand” riser and buy a better backed product if you priced it at anything over $24.99. The Victor product is adjustable and comes with multiple shims, secure mounting hardware, and a drill bit for installation - for $29.99. The clip on riser kits for carbine stocks which I’ve used in the past came with 2-3 risers and were priced at $19.99-34.99. The Larue Risr is $49.99, and comes with mounting screws and has a reciprocating mechanism for charger concession. While your product is more like the Choate riser which sells for $12.99, or the Magpul CTR riser (single clip on) which sells for $19.99. So I wouldn’t be in it for anything over $15-20.

 

[The 3D Warrior]

We’ve been making these out of various polymers for at least 22 years - as I learned it from the old-man gunsmith I apprenticed under as a teen that long ago. 3D printing is a new twist for manufacturing method, but a glue or screw on block of polymer used as a cheek riser is nothing new. Do your market research and you’ll quickly see what’s out there to compete against. There’s plenty of room for you in the market, as long as you deliver quality products and operate your business with customer satisfaction at the forefront.

The headache I see for you currently - you’re marketing custom products for proprietary designs - if you’re making custom printed products to fit Magpul products, licensing and marketing may be an insurmountable hurdle. It won’t stop you from selling through Etsy or Ebay, Shapeways, or other relatively grey market options where you might enjoy reasonable sales while also enjoying some anonymity without officially licensing. Doing this “above board” with legally licensed design and marketing rights is more of a challenge.

One particular feature drawback I personally see in your product is adjustability, or rather lack thereof. For a stock which is already adjustable, such as the Magpul PRS you have pictured, this is moot, but for a fixed comb like the UBR and the VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR POTENTIAL FUTURE CUSTOMERS WHICH NEED ADJUSTMENT ON A FIXED COMB STOCK your product is just a brick, such it can’t be adjusted - at least not without full cost replacement. In the market, alternatively, the Victor Company Universal cheek riser uses interlocking shims to allow incremental user adjustment to suit varying optic heights above fixed combs. So two questions you need to ask yourself - 1) why would your non-adjustable product be favorable over a customers adjustable riser? And conceding the answer to the first question is “it isn’t,” then the second question becomes 2) how can you adapt your design to allow for adjustability. Another example here, in addition to the Victor Company product, is the snap on “riser kits” which have been offered for carbine stocks by various companies for ~20 yrs, such as Command Arms, which come with multiple height risers in a single kit. Fab has multi-layered risers available for their stocks as well. The Victor company riser looks to be attached by drilling and screwing to the stock, something I was trying to avoid and on a stock like the PRS the cheek plate isn't a full thickness stock and can present an issue running too long of a screw through it. The PRS is also a little wide for the universal Victor rest, they may make one but a quick google search didn't show one, but I can look again later.


Admittedly I’d love to add some rise to my beloved UBR stocks, but curious how you’re solving the issue with the reciprocating charger on the fixed comb. (Reference Larue RISR).

Solve all of these, and figure out how your business doesn’t infringe in design or marketing, and you might have something.

Thanks for the info. I mentioned the UBR as a possibility but given the type of rifle and optics used, plus I already own one for modeling purposes, I didn't figure most would really need a riser for a UBR. If demand is there and I can figure a way to make it work then it's a possibility. My first focus was on the PRS as that one needed the height correction. As you said on a non-adjustable stock it is just a brick, I am looking at the adjustable stock that I currently had to start with as a simple design. If things grow out of that then I can expand to different products.

What issue with licensing would there be? I could see maybe if I used the Magpul name in the sale of the riser but reverse engineering parts to fit another manufacturer's item is how the aftermarket makes money. Magpul themselves makes the PRS to fit the AR, do they pay for licensing to each manufacturer? I'm learning as I go so please if you have info I am all ears. To answer the question on why so high, my scope has a 50mm reticle that has about am 1/8 inch to clear at the front so I had to go with rings that tall.

The other risers that I have found were either too generic, which works on a long solid stock with limited contours, or not for the PRS. With a couple of exceptions mentioned in my first post. If I went with a smaller scope or the PRS was on a different rifle it may not have been an issue but my necessity led me to invention. I know I am not the only one with the same problem as I found when originally looking for an already made solution. I even ran across some people with other precision rifles and adjustable stocks that just needed a little more, but I don't have one of those so I have to start somewhere. Adjustability, either through shims or infinitely is something worth looking in to, especially if this expands to fixed stock rifles.

My current design for an already adjustable stock aims to be able to install without any tools, totally reversable with no permanent damage to the stock (for future resale), and fill what I saw was a gap in current product lines. I plan to start with etsy and facebook just to see if there is even a market for this type of thing.

Thanks for the use of your experience, the feedback certainly helps.

 

[taliv]

my opinion, worth what you paid for it

there are two trends in modern rifle shooting, both popular in the PRS, which cause people to NOT want a high cheek rest.
1. squared up position. people don't shoot at a bladed angle with butt of stock in shoulder pocket like WW2 marksmanship pamphlets if they can avoid it. they put the butt of the stock under their chin, as close to the center of their chest as they can. their head then naturally is straight up, and not laid over on its side, which causes more of a chin rest in stead of a cheek rest.
2. free recoil. instead of driving the gun, loading the bipod, etc, a lot of people take a more balanced position, try to touch the rifle with only their trigger finger/thumb, and keep their head and shoulder from creating wobble. that's frankly easier to do by completely removing the cheekpiece altogether. raising it would be the last thing you'd want to do

so you might want to do a market study before putting too much effort into making a buggy whip. that said, i still prefer a solid cheekpiece and i don't like them to slip. i don't like squishy or floppy cheek pieces. and i would often put skateboard tape to keep myself from slipping.

one last thought. in the more practical matches, you are often forced into positions where you shoot weak shoulder. if your cheek rest offers a lateral shift, for a more natural upright head position, consider making it reversible, so you can quickly turn it around and shoot weak side

 

[army_eod]

Lower your scope. Then pick you option.

 

[Varminterror]

Magpul themselves makes the PRS to fit the AR, do they pay for licensing to each manufacturer?

Colt owns the trademark for “AR-15,” renewed as recently as 2014. Magpul would not have to pay license fees to anyone except Colt, and you’ll note, they don’t use the trademarked form “AR-15,” but rather only “AR15” in their site marketing copy.

IP laws are pretty straight forward, trademarks are what they are, and protected IP is what it is. Learn to live that life before you get cease and desist orders from folks with enough capital to bury you in legal fees just for fun. Working on the right side of the line pays off, or stay far enough away from it to avoid road rash when your bike goes rubber up.

 

[The 3D Warrior]

Colt owns the trademark for “AR-15,” renewed as recently as 2014. Magpul would not have to pay license fees to anyone except Colt, and you’ll note, they don’t use the trademarked form “AR-15,” but rather only “AR15” in their site marketing copy.

IP laws are pretty straight forward, trademarks are what they are, and protected IP is what it is. Learn to live that life before you get cease and desist orders from folks with enough capital to bury you in legal fees just for fun. Working on the right side of the line pays off, or stay far enough away from it to avoid road rash when your bike goes rubber up.

So instead of "Magpul" using "Mag-pul Precison stock" Would skirt the letter. I get the intent is to avoid damage to their name by using it to represent a product as endorsed by them. So if I were selling it as a Magpul riser, insinuating it is made by them, then I could see a claim against infringement. If it is clearly marketed as made by me to fit their stock there is no claim and even if my product were a total bust the damage to their trademark is zero. Of course that doesn't mean that is the way the law actually works just my common sense trying to think it through. I'll have to read up a bit on fair use and trademarks vs copyrights. Thanks

 

[Varminterror]

@The 3D Warrior - no, on so many levels... your “common sense assumptions” about intellectual property law are extremely far off base for how these laws actually work.

Bluntly, misspelling Magpul will not circumvent trademark law. Trademark law examines phonetic equivalency, and the consensus law is that if it sounds the same, it IS the same.

Using someone’s trademarked content doesn’t imply it is made by them. Only that you have appropriately licensed their trademarked content.

Your assumption that use of their trademarks by you cannot be considered damaging is simply incorrect. Nobody assumes you are making on behalf of Magpul if you say “this product fits Magpul stocks,” but it does imply Magpul has granted you license to use their trademark protected name. If your product is junk, then it implies Magpul gives license to junk dealers, which IS damaging to their name. It ALSO inhibits them from properly controlling marketing and profitability from their trademarks. Owning a trademark is to own the exclusive rights to decide how it is used in the marketplace - but if every flea ridden dog in the market used their trademark, the trademark would lose its value. Hence, we have IP laws which protect trademarked intellectual property AS property, allowing sole control to the owner.

IP law varies by protection type, whether patent, copyright, or trademark. The Magpul name and their PRS stock name are Trademarked intellectual properties - Trademark law REQUIRES the owner protect their trademarked properties from infringement, or lose their trademark altogether. So even if Magpul didn’t really care if YOU used their names for this particular product, they still have to prevent you from using the names without license, lest they lose the ability to prevent another maker from selling a non-licensed product under the same name.

Dimensional compatibility CAN fall under copyright infringement, if you effectively recreate prints of their copyrighted material to produce your own products. Equally, you may run into patent infringement issues.

So as I have said a few times here, just do your due diligence and either 1) live above the line communicate with Magpul about appropriate use of their trademarked material (brand and product names, in this case), ensure you’re not infringing upon any patents, and only use their IP as you are legally able to do so, with or without license, or 2) stay away from the line, and don’t use their protected names in your marketing.

Call Magpul, explore your options.

Honestly, I think the market of guys using the wrong rings or wrong scopes with their rifles, requiring even greater riser height than the PRS riser allows is exceptionally small, so you’re probably chasing your tail anyway, but hey, if you wanna fill a niche, fill a niche.

 

[The 3D Warrior]

@The 3D Warrior - no, on so many levels... your “common sense assumptions” about intellectual property law are extremely far off base for how these laws actually work.

Bluntly, misspelling Magpul will not circumvent trademark law. Trademark law examines phonetic equivalency, and the consensus law is that if it sounds the same, it IS the same.

Using someone’s trademarked content doesn’t imply it is made by them. Only that you have appropriately licensed their trademarked content.

Your assumption that use of their trademarks by you cannot be considered damaging is simply incorrect. Nobody assumes you are making on behalf of Magpul if you say “this product fits Magpul stocks,” but it does imply Magpul has granted you license to use their trademark protected name. If your product is junk, then it implies Magpul gives license to junk dealers, which IS damaging to their name. It ALSO inhibits them from properly controlling marketing and profitability from their trademarks. Owning a trademark is to own the exclusive rights to decide how it is used in the marketplace - but if every flea ridden dog in the market used their trademark, the trademark would lose its value. Hence, we have IP laws which protect trademarked intellectual property AS property, allowing sole control to the owner.

IP law varies by protection type, whether patent, copyright, or trademark. The Magpul name and their PRS stock name are Trademarked intellectual properties - Trademark law REQUIRES the owner protect their trademarked properties from infringement, or lose their trademark altogether. So even if Magpul didn’t really care if YOU used their names for this particular product, they still have to prevent you from using the names without license, lest they lose the ability to prevent another maker from selling a non-licensed product under the same name.

Dimensional compatibility CAN fall under copyright infringement, if you effectively recreate prints of their copyrighted material to produce your own products. Equally, you may run into patent infringement issues.

So as I have said a few times here, just do your due diligence and either 1) live above the line communicate with Magpul about appropriate use of their trademarked material (brand and product names, in this case), ensure you’re not infringing upon any patents, and only use their IP as you are legally able to do so, with or without license, or 2) stay away from the line, and don’t use their protected names in your marketing.

Call Magpul, explore your options.

Honestly, I think the market of guys using the wrong rings or wrong scopes with their rifles, requiring even greater riser height than the PRS riser allows is exceptionally small, so you’re probably chasing your tail anyway, but hey, if you wanna fill a niche, fill a niche.

Thanks again for the info. I am researching trademarks and copyrights for my own business name/logo so I will pickup on some of what you said as I learn. The riser is something simple amd easy I could do as a stepping stone to bigger and ultimate goal for what I want to do.

 

[rbernie]

My biggest complaint with most cheekrisers in general is that they are not designed for rifles with neutral stocks (i.e. no cast off), making it difficult to get a good hard cheekweld and still get behind the optic. The cheek riser ideally should be asymmetric / handed.

 

[CraigC]

It has occurred to me that most people installing cheek risers really only need lower rings. I've had knock-down, drag-outs with folks who put AR mounts on a Ruger American and then complain the comb is too low.

 

[Walkalong]

It has occurred to me that most people installing cheek risers really only need lower rings. I've had knock-down, drag-outs with folks who put AR mounts on a Ruger American and then complain the comb is too low.

Depends on how you use the rifle. I have found I like the scope higher up on a PRS rifle that will be shot from all kinds of positions, many of which are heads up.

But yea, some folks choose ring height poorly