brian0128
Member
I'm looking at getting a Dan Wesson to replace my springfield as a carry weapon and I would like some opinions on the external safety. What are the advantages/disadvantages in having a .45 1911 clone with an external safety?
Opinions on Dan Wesson .45 and external extractor....
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Sven
Senior Member
A very very seasoned gunsmith I know - who has fed himself for many moons in this trade - told me one reason that external ejectors can be a bad thing. If a .45 case 'torches', it can rip the ejector right out of the gun.
Rounds apparently torch more commonly than you might think... a 'torch' is is when a small fissure develops in the brass where hot gasses escape during firing... this is usually near the base of the round for .45 where the 'web' can be thin.
Three weeks ago, my gunsmith friend told some folks at an IDPA shoot about this possible failure. The man who owned the gun (with an external ejector) huffed and puffed and said 'that would never happen to me'.
Guess what happened during the IDPA match? Yup. Instant karma. Guy comes up to my gunsmith buddy and says that his gun stopped working... later they found both the ejector and the torched round (you can see where the hot gasses shot out the side).
Rounds apparently torch more commonly than you might think... a 'torch' is is when a small fissure develops in the brass where hot gasses escape during firing... this is usually near the base of the round for .45 where the 'web' can be thin.
Three weeks ago, my gunsmith friend told some folks at an IDPA shoot about this possible failure. The man who owned the gun (with an external ejector) huffed and puffed and said 'that would never happen to me'.
Guess what happened during the IDPA match? Yup. Instant karma. Guy comes up to my gunsmith buddy and says that his gun stopped working... later they found both the ejector and the torched round (you can see where the hot gasses shot out the side).
Parker Dean
Member
Well it seems the world is going to external extractors. Part of the reason DW's have externals is that S&W is their supplier for the forged parts, like slides.
It doesn't have be that way for them as the 1911 forum requested that the RZ-10 have an internal extractor and it was done. I think the base 1911 has an internal too. It is interesting to note that the RZ's have extraction issues from a too-loose extractor and that Bob said that's how they were told to set it. Perhaps, but its just as likely that they slapped an extractor in and shipped it like it is said you can with an external. A little extractor tweaking and the issue is solved but you can imagine how much that could cost in hand-fitting at the factory level.
JMB used externals on previous versions of his autoloaders. And what became the 1911 was initially specced with one IIRC, but the Army requested an internal.
Externals are said to be drop-in-and-go which is why we're seeing them more and more, where the internal tends to take a bit of tweaking. The external spring is said to weaken frequently but be easy to replace, while the internal is more durable once you get it set lasting for tens of thousands of rounds.
FWIW, I happen to think externals look like crap on 1911's.
I've heard tell of DW doing some one-offs from common parts. Someone over on 1911 forum ordered a "half-breed" of some sort. I don't recall what exactly was done but the point is that they'll do that sort of thing. Give 'em a call and see what they can do for you.
It doesn't have be that way for them as the 1911 forum requested that the RZ-10 have an internal extractor and it was done. I think the base 1911 has an internal too. It is interesting to note that the RZ's have extraction issues from a too-loose extractor and that Bob said that's how they were told to set it. Perhaps, but its just as likely that they slapped an extractor in and shipped it like it is said you can with an external. A little extractor tweaking and the issue is solved but you can imagine how much that could cost in hand-fitting at the factory level.
JMB used externals on previous versions of his autoloaders. And what became the 1911 was initially specced with one IIRC, but the Army requested an internal.
Externals are said to be drop-in-and-go which is why we're seeing them more and more, where the internal tends to take a bit of tweaking. The external spring is said to weaken frequently but be easy to replace, while the internal is more durable once you get it set lasting for tens of thousands of rounds.
FWIW, I happen to think externals look like crap on 1911's.
I've heard tell of DW doing some one-offs from common parts. Someone over on 1911 forum ordered a "half-breed" of some sort. I don't recall what exactly was done but the point is that they'll do that sort of thing. Give 'em a call and see what they can do for you.
If the standard extractor is made as designed it normally doesn't present a problem. The main reason why we see issues is because of the sub-standard materials used and lack of any tension adjustment from the factory.
I too agree that external extractors look like crap. I've long gotten used to them on a Hi-Power, but not on a 1911.
I too agree that external extractors look like crap. I've long gotten used to them on a Hi-Power, but not on a 1911.
KP95DAO
member
I have owned two Star PDs, which had external extractors, and put over 13,000 rounds through the pair altogether. Never a problem with feeding or extraction. The same goes for my three Ruger autos, which have external extractors. Some people just like the "old" stuff.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Extractor issues
When I first joined this forum, I nearly got into a fight with one of the
members by posting that a proper internal extractor should be made
of high-grade spring steel.
IF the 1911 extractor is a true spring...and IF it is properly adjusted,
it will outlast the gun in most cases. I've got some old GI pistols
that are still running on the original extractors, though they have been
through multiple rebuilds, and there have been ZERO extractor-related
malfunctions.
A billet extractor can be modified to make it behave more like a spring,
and the need for periodic retensioning can be nearly, if not completely
eliminated with a good-quality billet extractor...some have gone
50,000 rounds and beyond without attention other than removal
and cleaning.
I also think that the external extractors on a 1911 just don't look
right, and they're not quickly or easily serviceable in the field.
Just my observations...
Tuner
When I first joined this forum, I nearly got into a fight with one of the
members by posting that a proper internal extractor should be made
of high-grade spring steel.
IF the 1911 extractor is a true spring...and IF it is properly adjusted,
it will outlast the gun in most cases. I've got some old GI pistols
that are still running on the original extractors, though they have been
through multiple rebuilds, and there have been ZERO extractor-related
malfunctions.
A billet extractor can be modified to make it behave more like a spring,
and the need for periodic retensioning can be nearly, if not completely
eliminated with a good-quality billet extractor...some have gone
50,000 rounds and beyond without attention other than removal
and cleaning.
I also think that the external extractors on a 1911 just don't look
right, and they're not quickly or easily serviceable in the field.
Just my observations...
Tuner
The external extractors work just fine for me. I think the Dan Wesson probably uses the exact same one as my SW1911.
I think the trend towards external extractors is most likely driven the manufactures desire to eliminate a fitting/tuning step in assembly.
Good Luck...
Joe
I think the trend towards external extractors is most likely driven the manufactures desire to eliminate a fitting/tuning step in assembly.
Good Luck...
Joe
Kimber is going to all external extractors in the near future, from what I read. They are the largest manufacturers of 1911's at the moment.
It will be interesting to see if that helps or hurts their sales.
If a manufacturer can't or won't provide you with an internal that works properly out of the box, then I think they should go with externals. I'm assuming the 1911 externals works as well as all the other types of guns??
That may be a stretch for 1911 manufacturers that have a habit of tripping over their feet.
As you can tell, I have little sympathy for a manufacturer that can't make a single stack 45 work "out of the box".
My internal extractors have worked fine for many, many thousands of rounds, so I will wait on buying an external until enough rounds have been shot threw enough guns to determine if they are trouble free for the consumer.
It will be interesting to see if that helps or hurts their sales.
If a manufacturer can't or won't provide you with an internal that works properly out of the box, then I think they should go with externals. I'm assuming the 1911 externals works as well as all the other types of guns??
That may be a stretch for 1911 manufacturers that have a habit of tripping over their feet.
As you can tell, I have little sympathy for a manufacturer that can't make a single stack 45 work "out of the box".
My internal extractors have worked fine for many, many thousands of rounds, so I will wait on buying an external until enough rounds have been shot threw enough guns to determine if they are trouble free for the consumer.
brian,
I prefer the utter simplicity of the internal extractor deisgns, but have had good servive from some external models.
KP95DAO,
I find the Ruger's extractor is more akin to the 1911's internal design than it is to any of the modern external designs.
Ruger's extractor is sprung by its own shape, rather than having another spring to provide tension such as most of the more modern external extractors.
The external groove in Ruger's slide is there to facilitate the extractor's installation/removal from the front of the slide, rather than the rear.
I prefer the utter simplicity of the internal extractor deisgns, but have had good servive from some external models.
KP95DAO,
I find the Ruger's extractor is more akin to the 1911's internal design than it is to any of the modern external designs.
Ruger's extractor is sprung by its own shape, rather than having another spring to provide tension such as most of the more modern external extractors.
The external groove in Ruger's slide is there to facilitate the extractor's installation/removal from the front of the slide, rather than the rear.
Zak Smith
Member
I bought a Dan Wesson Patriot - with the external extractor - about 3 months ago (April 2003). I had no FTE failures for several thousand rounds.
Then I started to get FTE's with some regularity, from maybe 1-in-100 rounds, to several per mag. I noticed later than the extractor claw was chipped, though I did not notice that when it started happening.
DW said they'll mail me another extractor.
We'll see.
-z
Then I started to get FTE's with some regularity, from maybe 1-in-100 rounds, to several per mag. I noticed later than the extractor claw was chipped, though I did not notice that when it started happening.
DW said they'll mail me another extractor.
We'll see.
-z
And just so everybody knows...Bren has a HUGE bone to pick with Dan Wesson firearms... 
You might want to take his vindictive comments with a grain of salt...
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V
I purchased a DW Razorback and it admittedly had a few bugs in it, but DW shipped the pistol back to the factory on their dime and had my gun back in my hands in 7 days. The gun has been flawless ever since.
You might want to take his vindictive comments with a grain of salt...
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V
I purchased a DW Razorback and it admittedly had a few bugs in it, but DW shipped the pistol back to the factory on their dime and had my gun back in my hands in 7 days. The gun has been flawless ever since.
Not that he needs my help, but to defend Bren's statement about DW's spotty QC, here are just a few comments, collected from DW buyers at 1911Forum.com. I'm not saying DW is any worse/better than other makes, just that they do have issues:
The front sight is loose…The rear sight hinge pin is coming out…Mpro7 seems to remove the finish from the underside of the grips and take the color out of the laser work…I sent #16 back to DW today because of my jamming problem…
I' sending mine back also….too many FTF...Front site loose, back site lose after session at range…had several "lite" strikes on primers with failure to ignite…with Corbon, Blazer ammo.
…the sights on 2 RZ's…appear to be slightly canted (crooked), as viewed from shooting position…the front sights on 2 Patriots were loosely installed…rear of the dovetail was struck with a punch (at the factory)…to tighten-up the fit…one RZ which has exhibited some light firing pin strikes…RZ grips appear to be either painted or dyed black. Yuck! …brown wood peeking out at the tops of the diamonds.
…new Patriot Expert…Problem is that 2 or 3 rounds per magazine fail to go into battery. Most of the time the thumb safety cannot be engaged.
Razorback #5 will not feed jack !*&@ …have tried 5 different brands they will not feed into the barrel…
…pretty disappointed with my Patriot Marksman…blueing is inconsistent…rear sight has never stayed in place through a round of shooting…extractor has begun spewing casings all over the place…ejector is peened on the rear part, causing a nice large gap between it and the slide.
I picked up my patriot…the front sight was so loose I was able to push it most of the way out with my thumb…
…A DW pointman major…having some feeding issues, the gun will eject the spent shell, and jam the next round half way in the chamber and half way out of the mag…used Federal fmj 230 gr, and cci blazer 230 gr both with the same results…gun will jam 4 times out of 50 shots…mags require a good smack to get them past the mag catch…last round is fired the slide does not seem to be locking back properly 2 out of 5 mags…when handeling…and after locking the slide back to inspect…I would drop the slide by way of depressing the slide stop…takeing the hammer to half cock 4 out of 10 times, <Spelling errors are replicated from original post>
I just bought a PTE-S yesterday….ejector didn't look right….I think it's broken…a brand new gun….haven't even fired the gun yet….it's 100% broken…jagged, and…no protrusion…really frustrated…How can a new, top of the line DW pistol be shipped like this? Doesn't Dan Wesson have quality control…?
The nickeled GS turned out be more yellow than I had first thought….the very tip of the hammer is very nicely impact nickeled now from repeated (every shot) contact with the beavertail…the brass was hitting the slide behind the ejection port…
…new Pointman Minor PM2-P…grip panel cracked…grip bushing comes out with srew…got 4 rounds through jam ,jam again -tried differnt ammo jam-jam-jam wont extract or feed properly!!!Did i get a lemon!
…the Rz…two glaring errors. (#1) With the pistol empty & hammer down (condition 0) The thumb safety can go half way to engaged & stay there…(#2) The hammer seems too long and is already making a pretty nasty mark in the dished out area on the beavertail.
With only 250 rounds of S&B 230gr FMJs downrange, I have these issues…Shoots three inches below POA at 21 yards…Rear sight set screw keeps wiggling loose… Barrel link pin falls right out…DW medallion on left side grip panel fell off…Front sight has worked loose
Pointman minor PM3…The mag it came with sent the first rnd directly into the frame. So did all other mags tried including CMC and Wilson…some of the brass bonks me on the head sometimes.
…new Patriot Expert…2nd to last round from each mag the trigger didn't return forward all of the way. I had to move it forward to be able to shoot the last shot….
When i recieved the weapon the front sight was lose…The 2-piece guide rod loosened up 2x…RZ shipped with no grip screws…
The front sight is loose…The rear sight hinge pin is coming out…Mpro7 seems to remove the finish from the underside of the grips and take the color out of the laser work…I sent #16 back to DW today because of my jamming problem…
I' sending mine back also….too many FTF...Front site loose, back site lose after session at range…had several "lite" strikes on primers with failure to ignite…with Corbon, Blazer ammo.
…the sights on 2 RZ's…appear to be slightly canted (crooked), as viewed from shooting position…the front sights on 2 Patriots were loosely installed…rear of the dovetail was struck with a punch (at the factory)…to tighten-up the fit…one RZ which has exhibited some light firing pin strikes…RZ grips appear to be either painted or dyed black. Yuck! …brown wood peeking out at the tops of the diamonds.
…new Patriot Expert…Problem is that 2 or 3 rounds per magazine fail to go into battery. Most of the time the thumb safety cannot be engaged.
Razorback #5 will not feed jack !*&@ …have tried 5 different brands they will not feed into the barrel…
…pretty disappointed with my Patriot Marksman…blueing is inconsistent…rear sight has never stayed in place through a round of shooting…extractor has begun spewing casings all over the place…ejector is peened on the rear part, causing a nice large gap between it and the slide.
I picked up my patriot…the front sight was so loose I was able to push it most of the way out with my thumb…
…A DW pointman major…having some feeding issues, the gun will eject the spent shell, and jam the next round half way in the chamber and half way out of the mag…used Federal fmj 230 gr, and cci blazer 230 gr both with the same results…gun will jam 4 times out of 50 shots…mags require a good smack to get them past the mag catch…last round is fired the slide does not seem to be locking back properly 2 out of 5 mags…when handeling…and after locking the slide back to inspect…I would drop the slide by way of depressing the slide stop…takeing the hammer to half cock 4 out of 10 times, <Spelling errors are replicated from original post>
I just bought a PTE-S yesterday….ejector didn't look right….I think it's broken…a brand new gun….haven't even fired the gun yet….it's 100% broken…jagged, and…no protrusion…really frustrated…How can a new, top of the line DW pistol be shipped like this? Doesn't Dan Wesson have quality control…?
The nickeled GS turned out be more yellow than I had first thought….the very tip of the hammer is very nicely impact nickeled now from repeated (every shot) contact with the beavertail…the brass was hitting the slide behind the ejection port…
…new Pointman Minor PM2-P…grip panel cracked…grip bushing comes out with srew…got 4 rounds through jam ,jam again -tried differnt ammo jam-jam-jam wont extract or feed properly!!!Did i get a lemon!
…the Rz…two glaring errors. (#1) With the pistol empty & hammer down (condition 0) The thumb safety can go half way to engaged & stay there…(#2) The hammer seems too long and is already making a pretty nasty mark in the dished out area on the beavertail.
With only 250 rounds of S&B 230gr FMJs downrange, I have these issues…Shoots three inches below POA at 21 yards…Rear sight set screw keeps wiggling loose… Barrel link pin falls right out…DW medallion on left side grip panel fell off…Front sight has worked loose
Pointman minor PM3…The mag it came with sent the first rnd directly into the frame. So did all other mags tried including CMC and Wilson…some of the brass bonks me on the head sometimes.
…new Patriot Expert…2nd to last round from each mag the trigger didn't return forward all of the way. I had to move it forward to be able to shoot the last shot….
When i recieved the weapon the front sight was lose…The 2-piece guide rod loosened up 2x…RZ shipped with no grip screws…
Yes, 9x19, and I admitted that mine had a couple of problems, as well. DW has had a few teething problems. The point is that Bren goes out of his way to lambast DW, and that DW goes out of their way to fix any problems that you have with your gun if you have one. Most people are quite happy with their DWs -- especially the Patriots -- and you can be rest assured that if you have any problems DW will make it right.
(Unlike the 14 month wait that you will have trying to get Colt to fix your pistol... )
(Unlike the 14 month wait that you will have trying to get Colt to fix your pistol...
)caz223
Member
I have several guns with both.
My star PD, G20, SIG 228, and s&w 5904 are externals.
No problems.
My Razorback, and my sig pro 2340 are internal, and again, no problems.
I have guns with extraction/ejection/stovepiping/failure to lock back/slide locking for no reason, etc. but they are both CZ75s. (External equipped with weak springs.)
I got new higher power mag springs, and polished the rails, but have to adjust the slide stop, and possibly tune the recoil spring to a higher weight with a calibration pack.
I think the problem with the CZ75s is somewhere near the ejection port, but I have to work on it when I have more time to be sure.
My star PD, G20, SIG 228, and s&w 5904 are externals.
No problems.
My Razorback, and my sig pro 2340 are internal, and again, no problems.
I have guns with extraction/ejection/stovepiping/failure to lock back/slide locking for no reason, etc. but they are both CZ75s. (External equipped with weak springs.)
I got new higher power mag springs, and polished the rails, but have to adjust the slide stop, and possibly tune the recoil spring to a higher weight with a calibration pack.
I think the problem with the CZ75s is somewhere near the ejection port, but I have to work on it when I have more time to be sure.
I bought a DW PMDP and had feeding problems from the start. My gun would not feed hp's at all. I even had problems with ball ammo feeding. The DP model has a ramped barrel. The rear sight was very loose. and the slide was scrapping on the frame. The I found that the mainspring housing pin was forced and bent, which bent the frame slightly. They sent me a new pin and I fixed that problem. Now I shipped the gun back to DW and the fixed the feeding problem , fixed the rear sight problem and fixed the scrapping slide and all I asked for was the feeding problem to be fixed. They then reblued my slide for me. This is what I see. Their quality control of assembly needs to be tightened up. Their quality control of building the pistol is fine. Their service department is excellent and their guns shoot very tight groups. But they are not Kimbers.
Climb14er
Member
Both my Patriot in blue and the HK USPc 9mm have external extractors.
Not one single FTF, jam or malfunction.
Not one single FTF, jam or malfunction.
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