Optics Options...HELP!!!

[baldeagle93]

I'm building a deer hunting rifle for a friend and need so advice on optics. The rifle is a Rem700 SPS in .308 Win. I do not want to break the bank, but he wants to remedy not being able to shoot accurately outside 250 yards and loosing opportunity in low light dawn/dusk twilight hours. I've shot too many deer while he is walking back to the truck and he is finally decided it is time for an upgrade. I am using a Mark4, he doesn't want to spend that much money...what are some options?

Budget for scope is +/- $600.

Here is a short list of desired options/details;
1) Fixed or variable
2) MilDot reticle
3) Prefer an illuminated reticle
4) Low Light Transmission (Twilight)
5) All adjustments on ocular end of scope (i.e. parallax)

I looked at Osprey for about 30 seconds (that's what brought me to THR). Looked somewhat impressive at the gun show, but fortunately I don't make purchases without researching...sorry, my motto is to learn from your mistakes, I had an older brother...it's just habit.

I have seemed to narrow the field to a few items, if you can give me any feed back on these scopes, please let me know. If you have another option I appreciate that too. Here are the nominations;

Swift-http://www.opticsplanet.net/swift-4-5-14x44mm-mil-dot-riflescope-687m.html

BSA-http://www.bsaoptics.com/scope.aspx?productID=294

Counter Sniper-http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=603063

Interested to see what information you can provide.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Scopes-C1719.aspx <---- probably your best bet.

 

[X-Rap]

It seems a VXIII in 3.5X10 would be a scope I would want for that rifle in that price range. It doesn't carry all the tactical goodies that you list but in my opinion having them in a cheap scope is a waste when you can get quality glass and warranty for the price you are willing to spend.

 

[ojibweindian]

Maybe something along this line: http://swfa.com/Nikon-4-16x42-Monarch-Riflescope-P42341.aspx

 

[JDGray]

I just sold that very same Swift scope. Good clear optic for the money. The parallax is on the AO, no SF, turrets are decent and resetable to your desired zero. Didn't care for the tracking, but once its zeroed, it stayed put. Has a lifetime transferable warranty, which I used to fix the parallax adjustment, had the scope back in a week, with no issues

 

[Abel]

When you opt for all those bells and whistles, you compromise on glass quality....if you insist on that price range. The Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm is the best in your price range.

 

[MCMXI]

I bought a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm with an RZ-600 reticle last year. It's an excellent scope but it doesn't have an illuminated reticle. The RZ reticle is better than a mildot for hunting in my opinion.

http://swfa.com/Zeiss-3-9x40-Conquest-Rifle-Scope-P8665.aspx

If your friend absolutely needs an illuminated reticle then a Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x50mm might be a good choice.

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-...3-riflescopes/vx-3-3-5-10x50mm-illum-reticle/

Andrew Wyatt, I wouldn't want tall turrets on a hunting scope like the ones on the SS scopes. I'd rather make range adjustments using the reticle. Tall turrets are prone to damage in the field.

 

[peptoe]

These Bushnell 6500's are a good value, and they even come with the baseball card in the spoke.

http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toy...2.5-16x50-mm-Rifle-Scope/3358659/product.html


I'd prefer a 6X42 leopold.

 

[dakotasin]

swift, bsa, etc are not what i would want on my own 'last second of shooting light' rifle.

why the need for the mil dot reticle?

i reccomend a leupold 4.5-14x w/ cds turret, or nikon monarch in 2.5-10 w/ bdc. either will take you past legal light, and both are bright and durable.

also, consider:
sightron s-2 series and higher.
leupold vx-2 series and higher.
nikon buckmaster.
zeiss conquest.
bushmaster 3200 series and higher.

any of those scopes will get the job done easily. and, really, all of them will take you past legal shooting light w/ a 40mm objective.

good luck!

 

[X-Rap]

I would talk to this guy. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502765

 

[baldeagle93]

Dakotasin-MilDot is an invaluable resource in the field. I carry so much gear into the field I've been mocked by all my fellow sportsman and friends, been accused of needing a sherpa. This season I somehow entered the season without replacing the battery in my range finder...needless to say, on a draw hunt in a National Wildlife Management Area, my range finder went dead! Thus the reason for MilDot. I use a range finder so I can be lazy, plus depending on which rifle I'm hunting with I may need to calculate ballistics to determine the dope for my scope. Thus, because I believe that every person pulling the trigger (especially to kill anything that doesn't come out of a printing press) deserves to be trained to effectively utilize their weapon.

Thank you all for the great products! I was not satisfied with the options I had found, thus the search for the most prime optic for the budget. I did get a chance to handle the Zeiss Conquest this evening at the local gun shop, at this point I think it and the VX3 are in the lead. I also found a Nikon Tactical 6690 within the budget...but it did not have a MilDot reticle, personally I don't understand not having a MilDot on a tactical scope.

I think that he may to lose his "desire" for an illuminated reticle. I think that if most people that have been using a scope that they can't see in limited light will use a quality scope, they might not see the need for the illuminated reticle.

Thank you all...keep the information coming. Fortunately/unfortunately I've been shooting the same 3 rifles for 10 years and have not had a need to do much research on new products. Glad that many of you value quality...some people say it is easy spending other peoples money, I disagree if they are a good friend.

 

[Maverick223]

I bought a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm with an RZ-600 reticle last year. It's an excellent scope but it doesn't have an illuminated reticle. The RZ reticle is better than a mildot for hunting in my opinion.

Took the words right off my keyboard...that is the exact model that I would recommend. The illuminated reticle is an unnecessary feature that I would rather not have on most optics (takes batteries, prone to failure, and slightly heavier/bulkier). The Zeiss is the best optics you can get for sub-$600 IMO. Others that come close are Nikon Monarch, Bushnell Elite, and Sightron II/III. I consider the above scopes to be amongst the best values in optics today.

Just don't buy from SWFA, those lyin'... OTOH Liberty Optics (if they have what you want), Optics Planet, and Midway have great service and generally better pricing.

 

[blackops]

http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-mark-2-6-18x40mm-t2-tactical-riflescopes.html

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-monarch-4-16x42sf-riflescopes.html

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I would personally sacrifice on options rather than optical quality and durability. Leupold is always a solid bet. I used to hunt with a Tasco, and like your friend, I got tired of slinging the rifle and calling it quits an hour before legal shooting light ended because I could no longer see through my optics, esp when I was in foliage. I put a Vari-X III 4.5-14x40AO on my 7mm and have enjoyed every minute of available shooting light since. The Leupolds have a rather brilliant rangefinding system built into their reticle that forgoes the need for mildot calculations when used correctly. On deer sized game, the distance from the backbone to the brisket is typically held to be between 16 and 18 inches. The Leupold takes this known size and incorperates it into their standard Duplex reticle as the distance between the horizontal crosshair and the tip of the bold Duplex line. They have a range indicator built into the power adjustment ring. So you simply place the crosshairs over the deer and adjust the power on the scope until the deer is bracketed between the horizontal crosshair and the tip of the bold Duplex line. The power indicator then tells you the range. For example, if I crank that scope up to 14x to bracket the deer on the opposing hillside, that tells me it's about 600 yards away, which basically means that more me, right now as out of practice as I am, it's out of range. I believe the newer VX-IIIs still incorporate this feature, and it may even be present in the Boone and Crockett reticles Leupold offers, which also prodives a Bullet Drop Compensator for the most popular classes of cartridges, of which the .308 most certainly applies. My dad has a VX-III 4.5-14 on his .338 RUM and it is an excellent optic, in every sense of the word--clarity, brightness, resolution, durability, adjustment range, features, and value, even if it is at the upper limit of your price range. Don't hesitate to nab one up if you have the opprotunity.

The Nikon Buckmaster is also a great value, though not on par optically with the Leupold, even the older Vari-X III that I have on mine.

 

[praharin]

Here is a review of probably the best option for a practical precision scope if your price range.

http://www.snipercentral.com/menace4.htm

There are lots of good scopes to be had at < $600, but the Falcon has the best features/quality/price balance of just about any other scope out there right now.

 

[baldeagle93]

I think that I have gotten him to sacrifice the illuminated reticle. Thus far I think that I am leading towards the Vari-X III or Zeiss.

Anyone else got any details on Zeiss? I have two rigs set up with Leupold Mark 4's and one with a Swarvoski ZFM...I love my Leupold's, but there is a distinct difference in the superiority of the Swarvoski over Leupold...even at the Mark 4 level. I've always though of a pecking order of Sarvoski, Zeiss and Leupold.

 

[Maverick223]

Anyone else got any details on Zeiss?...I've always though of a pecking order of Sarvoski, Zeiss and Leupold.

The Zeiss has better glass than the Leupold IMO, and FWIW I think that Zeiss is just as good as a Swaro at the same relative price point (which is generally about 20-35% less for the Zeiss). The Leupold isn't bad (for the VX-III anyway) but it is a little overpriced IMO, and Zeiss is definitely the best buy. The only reason I would (and have) bought Leupold is for features not offered from other manufacturers (mainly gloss, which can be very difficult to find with certain magnification/features). I think Leupy offers more features and options for each model than any other manufacturer so it is easier to find exactly what you want.

 

[X-Rap]

I can't speak to the comparison to scopes but I have a pair of Swarovski 10x50 bino's and know a couple guys who have the newer 10x42's and I have yet to see an equal to the Austrian glass. Over the 20+ yrs I have had mine I can say the cost was worth the difference in quality.
I have a lot of Leupold scopes and with the best I can't see what I see in my bino's in low light.

 

[TehK1w1]

I'm gonna have to recommend the Conquest 3-9x40 as well. Midwayusa just dropped their price for it to $400...

 

[Maverick223]

Midwayusa just dropped their price for it to $400...

Not the one with the Rapid-Z reticle is it? I need to check that out...brb.

EDIT: Just checked, it is the Plex reticle, but still a good deal. I would recommend it over the RZ if you can save $175.00. The RZ reticle is nice but that is a big difference for an extra couple cuts in the glass.

 

[Uncle Mike]

I could never fathom the deer hunter who would take the time and effort to 'range' a deer with the mil-dot, or any other ranging reticle.

With todays high powered cartridges, and unless your shooting to 500y or so, why range?
The trajectory of these rounds will be within 20'' of drop, considering a 200y zero, now I don't know, but one can accurately estimate 20" on the side of a deer, and in reality, how often, or should you even, take a shot, at a deer, at this exaggerated distance!?!

I have always said, while the guy fooling with ranging a deer with the reticle, the kid with the 4X Bushnell just dropped your deer! lol hehehehe

Any reticle can be used to range with, given you know the reticle in question substentions.

Take a look at the Burris 2-12X50 Six-X scope, low power for the close in work and 12X for the long range work, all the while having the 50mm objective to gather a lot of light at dawn or dusk.

As was mentioned, the Zeiss Conquest is a good bet, also the Kahles 4-12X52mm is more than excellent and can be had half price right now at CDNN.
Side focus, 1" tube and you can get the multiple setting turrets for a bit more cash.

A good place to buy scopes....http://www.natchezss.com/optics.cfm?category=20

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/kahlesscopes.html

 

[Abel]

praharin wrote:

but the Falcon has the best features/quality/price balance of just about any other scope out there right now.

What separates it from a decent Nikon Monarch?

 

[baldeagle93]

I could never fathom the deer hunter who would take the time and effort to 'range' a deer with the mil-dot, or any other ranging reticle.

You are mostly right, but I think I posted earlier that I have been in the field and had the battery in my range finder go dead, I was thankful that I had a MilDot scope so I could still calculate yardage. Pretty much the same reason I carry a compass into the field even though I have a GPS. I've trained to use it...so I do!

On the other hand, my friend is not military trained and does not know how to use a mil dot, so I have abandoned this feature, because math sucks when you are hunting!

With todays high powered cartridges, and unless your shooting to 500y or so, why range?

Why range...cuz I don't like feeding yotes and I want an accurate shot! Same reason I balance my check book...close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades (and sometimes the drive-in ). Grenades destroy the meat too much!

in reality, how often, or should you even, take a shot, at a deer, at this exaggerated distance!?!

400-600 yards is not an "exaggerated distance" for a trained shooter. Depending on situations a 400-600 yard shot could be ridiculous, but if you are trained and are set up for it...and have the tools for it, got for it. If you are estimating the 20" drop and throwing up a hail Mary Kentucky windage shot, yeah...you shouldn't be taking the shot. IMO, I am comfortable with any shot I decide to take, and I don't like seeing deer that I can't kill.

I have always said, while the guy fooling with ranging a deer with the reticle, the kid with the 4X Bushnell just dropped your deer! lol hehehehe

I can't say I disagree, but only because of one word, "fooling." I agree with you, any gear you carry into the field you should be proficient with. Bubba and Billy Bob can carry their 4X Bushnell's in on their flat shooting 7MM, but when ole wise Bucky comes to the edge of the field at 530 yards with 10 minutes of legal light remaining and you know good and well that he'll never get close enough within time to shoot...you can tell the story of how you almost got to shoot him and you can come to my house and see him on the wall!

Also, depending on where and how you hunt, most deer hunters stands are like a shooting bench any way. You are not shooting off hand, kneeling, sitting or even in the prone position. Quite frankly, I feel I often have a better shot at 250 yards and farther because the deer are typically unaware of me, I can get into a better shooting position and I have time to "fool" with my scope.

The concept of "sniping" related to deer hunting can become useful. The reason a sniper trains at "exaggerated distances" is because he may not have any other option of cover or shot than what the target gives him. Same is true with deer hunting, for the most part...I can't dictate where the deer are going to be, so I plan on being prepared for whatever situation he give me. Until the state of Tennessee changes their mind on baiting deer, I'll be prepared to shoot at any range.

All that to say...Your recommendation of Zeiss Conquest is probably what we will end up with.

 

[MCMXI]

All that to say...Your recommendation of Zeiss Conquest is probably what we will end up with.

If your friend does buy a Zeiss and can afford the extra $ for the RZ-600 reticle then I'd highly recommend it. Zeiss has a neat calibration utility on their website for whatever load you shoot such that with a 200 yard zero, the stadia marked 3, 4, 5 and 6 line up very well at 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards. There are 5mph and 10mph wind corrections too. All in all the best hunting reticle I've seen. If the deer/elk/sheep/goat is far enough out, simply range it with a laser range finder, estimate the wind and BANG! Dinner is served!!

 

[bogus mcall]

rifle optics

My susgestion for a reasonably priced scope is a Burris Fulfield II. Get a 3x9x40 balsticplex. They are durable, bright and reliable. They gather enough light that if you can't see your target, it past shooting time anyway. The balsticplex gives you hold over marks out to 600 yards with a mag or 500 yards with standard calibers. I have never had to rezero any of mine unless they were removed for on reason or the other. They also have taken some pretty good knocks without loosing zero. The worst one was probably being knocked off the shooting bench. I have compleat confidence in them. Best of all you can pick them up for 200.00 or less.