Actually that was also a problem. Original 45 S&W rims won't allow loading side by side chambers in a Colt SAA. Can only load every other one. They reduced the rim slightly as well with the introduction of the new cartridge. Modern Schofield brass from Starline has been modified with the smaller rim so it fits in most SAA and reproduction guns but even then you still run into certain guns the rims rub on the teeth of the cylinder. Seen that problem on Vaqueros.
Howdy
That is the first time I have heard that, about original 45 S&W rims not being able to fit next to each other in a Colt. Curious the source of that information.
I only have two original Benet Primed, Copper Cased 45 Schofield rounds in my cartridge collection. The two on the left in this photo. Searching through the SAAMI website I find no dimensional specifications for 45 Schofield. Most sources, including two of my loading manuals list the rim diameter for 45 Schofield as either .520 or .525. I load 45 Schofield with Starline brass, and the rim diameter tends to run around .518 or .519. Interestingly enough, the rim diameters of these two original 45 Schofield rounds is .516 for one and .517 for the other.
As can be seen in this photo, there is no problem with them sitting next to each other in a Colt cylinder.
Yes, you are correct about Schofield rounds sometimes not fitting in a Ruger. The ratchet area on the 'original model' Vaqueros was a simple cylindrical drum, rather than the scalloped shape of the ratchets of a Colt. I have 3 'original model' Vaqueros chambered for 45 Colt. One chamber on one cylinder did not want to accept modern 45 Schofield brass, because the rim interfered with the 'ratchet drum'. It took about five minutes with a file to correct that. As can be seen in this photo, there is plenty of room between rims of 45 Schofield ammo on the stainless 'original model' Vaquero cylinder on the left, compared to the Colt cylinder on the right.
Interestingly enough, the smaller, New Vaquero cylinder below has no problem accepting antique and modern 45 Schofield ammo.
I am always curious when folks mention the scenario of 45 Colt ammo having been accidentally shipped to units that had the Schofield model issued to them. Yes, the 45 Colt round was simply too long to chamber in the original Schofield revolvers. That is why the Schofield round was invented. S&W did not want to miss out on lucrative Army contracts. S&W had been making their Top Break revolvers since 1869, but the largest caliber they came in was 44 Russian. Other than the original 44 caliber American Top Break revolvers that S&W had sold to the Army, 1000 if memory serves, the Army specified that they would only accept 45 caliber revolvers. This was not a problem, opening up the chambers and bores of a S&W Top Break to 45 caliber was not a problem. However S&W was in the middle of eventually making around 150,000 Russian Top Break revolvers for the Russian, Turkish, and Japanese governments, and these revolvers all had cylinders 1 7/16" long. 45 Colt was simply too long for these cylinders. S&W was not about to come up with new tooling for a longer cylinder, so the Army accepted the shorter 45 Schofield round that would fit into a 1 7/16" long cylinder.
Anyway, I keep hearing about difficulties with the wrong ammo shipped to some units, but I have never actually seen any documentation showing that it actually happened.
Here is another point that I make all the time: Any discussion on how many grains of Black Powder will fit into a certain cartridges is a bit of a moving target. The fact is, not all Black Powder weighs the same.
I made up this chart a long time ago, showing the actual grain weight of powder I use in the various cartridges I load with Black Powder. Please, don't anybody tell me that Black Powder is not weighed, it is loaded by volume. I have been doing this for close to 20 years, and the charges in the left hand column are actual volumetric measurements, from the standard Lee Dipper set. My standard charge for 45 Colt in modern solid head brass is 2.2CC. This allows between 1/16" and 1/8" compression when a 250 grain bullet is seated. This chart is a bit old, Elephant is not made any more, but the chart plainly shows how the same volume of one powder does not weigh the same as the same volume of another powder. For what it's worth, I am still loading 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg in my 45 Colt and 44-40 Black Powder cartridges in modern solid head brass. That charge weighs about 33.3 grains. Elephant was a heavier powder, but as I said it is no longer available. Goex is a little bit lighter.
I was able to chronograph my 45 Colt loads once a long time ago. My reloading notebook says that 2.2CC of Goex under a 250 grain bullet had an average velocity of 704 fps out of the 7 1/2" barrel of a 2nd Generation Colt. Sorry, I don't own a chronograph, although I see they have gotten quite cheap recently, so I have no data for my Schuetzen loads. I can tell you from the reading I have done that everything else being equal, FFFg Black Powder will achieve between 60fps - 100 fps more velocity than an equal charge of FFg Black Powder.
Here is a photo of a box of cartridges in my cartridge collection. These 45 Colt rounds were made at the Frankford Arsenal in 1874. Notice a 250 grain bullet is specified as well as 30 grains of powder. No, I am not going to dissect one to see what the granulation was, or see what kind of wadding was used.
Another photo of the same box, showing the bottom of a cartridge, which looks like a rimfire round because of the internal priming. Two cartridges are set out next to the box, along with one of my modern reloads. The crimps at the bottom of the Benet Primed rounds hold the internal anvil plate in place.
Cross sections of two 45 Colt round, a Remington-Umc Balloon Head on the left, a modern Winchester Solid head on the right. As can be seen, the Balloon Head had more interior capacity than the modern round. I have a box of these Balloon heads, and one of these days I will load up a box to see how much more powder they can hold.
A cutaway view of some original copper cased Benet Primed ammo. A 45 Colt and a 45 Schofield. on the far right is a cutaway showing how the internal anvil plate was held in place. Priming material was compressed between the rear of the case and the anvil plate. When the firing pin dented the soft copper case, the priming material ignited and the resultant flame passed through the two flash holes visible in the anvil plate. Again, I am not going to dissect one of my Benet Primed 45 Colt rounds, but everything I have read says these were the only rounds that truly held 40 grains of powder in them. The Balloon Heads held a little bit less.
Finally, yes if you compress it enough, you can stuff a lot of Black Powder into modern cases. Perhaps even 40 grains into a modern solid head case. I have never been temped to try, 33 grains of Schuetzen under a 250 grain bullet provides enough velocity, smoke and recoil for me.
P.S. About the Schofield revolver. I don't know if Colonel Schofield had anything to do with the Army buying them or not. I do know that there were 3,035 1st Model Schofields manufactured in 1875, and they all went to the Army. There were 5,934 2nd Model Schofields made in 1876 and 1877, and all but about 650 went to the Army. The Schofields pictured below are both 1st Models, that left the factory in 1875. One has been refinished, the other has not.
