OTF knives

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No

I've handled those, and scores of OTF knives, and while the Lightning is a better cheap knife it isn't a durable and reliable knife for day to day use. As bad as the poor economy of the cheap OTF that won't hold up is that it is a knockoff. Stealing another person's/company's intellectual property by making a cheap knockoff (or not so cheap) is unacceptable to me and shouldn't be to anyone who put effort into the work they do.
 
Do you have one and what is your experience with Out The Front knives?

I have two OTF knives, but do not have any experience with cheap ones.

Both examples I have are single edge and are not the dagger designs. I have a single edge Microtech Ultrach that I carry mostly in a shealth. I really like the design and mine has been flawless.
microtech-121-1-blk-standard.jpg

My favorite however is the Combat Trodon. I carry it regulary and am very happy with it. I have never had an accidental deployment, and cannot imagine anyone having that problem. I have never had a failure to deploy. Both knives are very robust designs, but the combat Trodon is very robust. Great steel, expensive, well made.

I highly recommend them both.

microtech-combat-troodon-bead-blast-ser-143-8-cm.jpg

Image credit to Bladehq

http://www.bladehq.com/

I have had good experience with them.

If you want one save up and get a good one. I don't think you will regret it.
 
No

I've handled those, and scores of OTF knives, and while the Lightning is a better cheap knife it isn't a durable and reliable knife for day to day use. As bad as the poor economy of the cheap OTF that won't hold up is that it is a knockoff. Stealing another person's/company's intellectual property by making a cheap knockoff (or not so cheap) is unacceptable to me and shouldn't be to anyone who put effort into the work they do.

Nut seemed to think it is. I appreciated his video...

I'm not sure what the rest of your comment means? Is the Lightning a knock off of an expensive knife?
 
Nut seemed to think it is.

Nut is great with guns, but he isn't an expert in this area. While there are certainly more knowledgeable people than I am on this, I'm comfortable in saying I've handled more than it is possible for him to have since I've been at it for over 20 years and in much greater depth. I encourage you to look at the critical reviews at Bladeforums, though. They match my personal experience with the Lightning.


Yes, the Lighting is a knockoff of a Microtech Scarab. If you created something at a very high level and then someone stole your idea and made a cheaply made lesser copy would you consider it theft or high praise?
 
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A $30 dollar knife - use the nutfancy discount code- advertised on a for revenue you tube channel-
That is a copy of a known quality product is enough reasons not to buy.
 
Nut is great with guns, but he isn't an expert in this area. While there are certainly more knowledgeable people than I am on this, I'm comfortable in saying I've handled more than it is possible for him to have since I've been at it for over 20 years and in much greater depth. I encourage you to look at the critical reviews at Bladeforums, though. They match my personal experience with the Lightning.

It still sounds like a decent OTF -- particularly for the price. I think there's a touch of snobbery with regard to OTFs? The Lightning sells for between $29 and $39.99 I suspect for example an outstanding knife -- a Lightning with greatly improved materials and workmanship could be sold for between $59 and $79.99 Still extremely inexpensive for an OTF. Some would recognize the value and some would remain in denial.

Someone else pointed this out on this thread. As soon as there is enough demand for OTFs, we'll see excellent, inexpensive versions on the market. In fact, we're beginning to see that today to some degree.


Yes, the Lighting is a knockoff of a Microtech Scarab. If you created something at a very high level and then someone stole your idea and made a cheaply made lesser copy would you consider it theft or high praise?

I wasn't aware of that. If it's a carbon copy using lesser materials, that's very bad form and possibly illegal. It would have been honorable to pay Marfione to license the design.
 
If the knockoff makers paid for what they stole they wouldn't be thieves. Instead they would be doing what CRKT and Spyderco and KaBar and other manufactures do, license the design, partner with the maker to credit and promote them and share in the profits. Instead you see American and European makers getting nothing for their hard work while fellow Americans pay thieves for the makers' talent and designs. Nearly as bad is that these knives are against the law to import into the U.S. because of the fed prohibition on autos. They're part of a black market that people who are ignorant or just don't care fund buying them. Heck, I wouldn't mind if they were German or Italian or French or Spanish design and manufacture because the laws against automatic knives is ridiculous, but stealing a maker's designs and then breaking the laws to bring them in because we provide a ready market for the theft of intellectual property goes way beyond getting a toggle lock or pick lock made by Heubertus or A. G. Capoline off some dealer's table at a show.

The least expensive reasonable quality OTFs are the H&K and Paragon lines. Anything much cheaper isn't going to meet a reasonable quality level beyond novelty envelope knife (Schrade makes a line of "assisted opening OTF" knives in the range, but they're pretty sloppy and depend upon the user to push them far enough for spring engagement opposed to pushbutton action), unless they're pot metal parts instead of 6061T6 Aluminum and hundredths tolerances instead of 0.001-0.0015 (half a thousandth on the blades in a Paragon) and paint on the pot metal or uneven finishes instead of coating or anodizing and no business taxes paid and workers paid at minimal American standards for their skill and no customer service or warranty possible and no partnering with the people who come up with the successful designs...like the Lightnings of the knife world.

As to demand making OTFs available at lower prices because volume would go up and per unit price would drop, this misses the tolerances fit requirements for an OTF with acceptable performance for real EDC use and that means tight QC and even hand fitting. It also presumes the development of that demand which isn't there. Benchmade and Buck know exactly how to optimize production to produce products at any price point they are willing to produce. They're not making $80 OTFs because they've already determined there's insufficient market to make money on them at the volume needed to do so. BM makes those HK OTFs that I recommended as the minimum reliable quality and you can buy one for over $100, but you won't see them crank out a $40 or $50 or even an $80 one because they can't get the quality to avoid the product liability and damage to their reputation for reliability and performance. Lester and C.J. are smart businessmen with good engineers and lawyers and production folks and they don't make the knife you envision because they can't, not because they won't.

I suspect...

SOG somehow cranks out quality side autos you can find for under, well under, $100 and Kershaw has for just a bit more than SOG, but it is amazing they can do it. Neither of them have produced an OTF at all much less in the same, much less the cheaper, range as the much easier to produce side openers.

The only way to sell the unicorn of the under $80 OTF made here with current technology is to make too many parts offshore used in them so you only have to drop in the springs and screw them together (assuming the tolerances are maintained), which violates Customs. Now that the Chinese, Kizer, Reat, ..., have stepped into the same U.S. market price range as BM and ZT with equivalent quality products I suspect you'll see them produce an OTF within a couple of years by blanking in China and shipping those "materials" to finish here at the needed tight tolerances (legal since you can't assemble a knife from just blanked handle halves and a blade without a final edge), but THAT knife will be $100-$150 on the street because those final machining steps and finer fit and finishing is where the majority of cost comes from.

Sure there's snobbery in the OTF market. That's partly because of the "forbidden fruit" aspect of autos drive the price up, which Knife Rights has been effectively chipping away at state by state and may effectively remove if they can get the fed switchblade law amended. BUT that snobbery can't account for the price difference you're imagining since none of the smaller more aggressive shops with lower overhead and hungry owners out there are (like RAT Worx) jumping into the middle market with anything produced in the U.S. that has the needed tolerances/quality to seize that middle ground. The best that's been done in driving price down by a small hungry company is the Paragon line for $170 at KnifeCenter.

I've had these discussions with the manufacturers and I've been in the shops watched the machining and assembly and I've even assembled Micros and Paragons myself. Because of that I see that a spring driven machine that needs tolerances of a thousandth to work reliably and properly (and will be used by the public as if it were a fixed blade) isn't in the cards for them until additive manufacturing makes some significant strides and the price of equipment to print the bodies comes down a great deal. When that happens, you may see the $80 U.S. OTF, but it will have an MSRP of $120 and be discounted down to the $70-$80 price range because a dealer is willing to sell more than the next dealer who needs to make a few more points on the product.
 
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I think there's a touch of snobbery with regard to OTFs?
Please don't confuse HSO's experience with snobbery. He's one of the nicest and most genuine people I've ever had the privilege to meet.

The Lightning sells for between $29 and $39.99 I suspect for example an outstanding knife -- a Lightning with greatly improved materials and workmanship could be sold for between $59 and $79.99 Still extremely inexpensive for an OTF. Some would recognize the value and some would remain in denial.
I'll believe it when I see it. And I'll accept it. HSO was pretty impressed with my $25 Kershaw Thermite a couple of years ago. But both of us have enough experience to understand that as impressive as the Thermite is at the price point it's still not a ZT 0560/0562/0566, and those still aren't an actual XM-18.
 
"If you created something at a very high level and then someone stole your idea and made a cheaply made lesser copy would you consider it theft or high praise"
Thinking Mad Dog Knives :(
 
"...As to demand making OTFs available at lower prices because volume would go up and per unit price would drop, this misses the tolerances fit requirements for an OTF with acceptable performance for real EDC use and that means tight QC and even hand fitting. It also presumes the development of that demand which isn't there..."

No.

First, if one wasn't going to be an OTF pirate, they would need high volume to sell an excellent knife at a very low price simply to amortize the design costs over a larger number of units.

Second, like it or not, an OTF isn't a terribly complicated instrument to manufacture. It doesn't take "tight QC" to make an excellent OTF. It takes a good (and highly manufactureable) design, good materials and quality workmanship.

Third, again, like it or not, the material costs for a top quality OTF aren't horrendously high either.

Selling a top quality (not fancy, showy, or collectible) OTF at a bargain price is going to take growing consumer demand. In some places laws will get in the way. If they catch on at a high level, we'll see excellent OTFs made of the right steels and G10 for well under a hundred bucks. Hopefully under $50.00
 
Aragon,

The 0.001, 0.0015 and 0.0005 tolerances are direct quotes from one of the manufacturers. Benchmade uses tighter tolerances. Those directly impact lockup and blade wobble. High QC is then required to get those tolerances so fit of parts is neither too loose or too tight. Materials aren't the biggest expense or the greatest unknown, but machine time, hand work time and tolerances failures are.

I had this conversation with one of the manufacturers this morning while he was checking on their EDM machine. Off the top of his head he says large numbers of handles would need to be die cast or MEM and blades fine blanked or MEM to produce a sub $100 OTF of acceptable quality. That requires enough sales to be worth investing about $20,000 in the new molds/dies to do it. The knives have to be sold with sufficient profit for that initial $20,000 to be recovered and replaced when they approach the practical end of their service life (we've all seen the failures that occur as they run equipment too long before replacement). It also requires the manufacturer to schedule time on the production schedule just for the numbers needed to hit the practical volumes for gross profitability on a product with very fuzzy sales potential as opposed to known and proven profit makers. He was intrigued by the idea, but pretty sure he couldn't do it (and he's making knives for more than one company) without a customer that wanted to make the investment to try.
 
Aragon,

The 0.001, 0.0015 and 0.0005 tolerances are direct quotes from one of the manufacturers. Benchmade uses tighter tolerances. Those directly impact lockup and blade wobble. High QC is then required to get those tolerances so fit of parts is neither too loose or too tight. Materials aren't the biggest expense or the greatest unknown, but machine time, hand work time and tolerances failures are.

It takes capable manufacturing processes -- both manual and automated. The way you use "QC" makes me think of inspection and a bunch of rework -- two very costly and worthless processes.

Though I'm a mechanical engineer I have never designed a knife. But I would suggest that a design that required tolerances of "five tenths" to operate correctly/well isn't a good design.

I had this conversation with one of the manufacturers this morning while he was checking on their EDM machine. Off the top of his head he says large numbers of handles would need to be die cast or MEM and blades fine blanked or MEM to produce a sub $100 OTF of acceptable quality. That requires enough sales to be worth investing about $20,000 in the new molds/dies to do it. The knives have to be sold with sufficient profit for that initial $20,000 to be recovered and replaced when they approach the practical end of their service life (we've all seen the failures that occur as they run equipment too long before replacement). It also requires the manufacturer to schedule time on the production schedule just for the numbers needed to hit the practical volumes for gross profitability on a product with very fuzzy sales potential as opposed to known and proven profit makers. He was intrigued by the idea, but pretty sure he couldn't do it (and he's making knives for more than one company) without a customer that wanted to make the investment to try.

Very good example of high tooling costs that require a high run rate in which to amortize at a low amount/knife.

There are some EXCELLENT side opening manual and auto knives for sale in the $50.00-100.00 range today. Even cheaper in some cases. There's just no laws of physics that keeps OTFs from also realizing this other than laws and demand.
 
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If you can design your knife for practical manufacture and prototype it I'd be happy to introduce you to the people in the industry that might produce it. Are you currently working for someone that you could develop the prototype with after hours equipment use or is a maker space available to you?
 
If you can design your knife for practical manufacture and prototype it I'd be happy to introduce you to the people in the industry that might produce it. Are you currently working for someone that you could develop the prototype with after hours equipment use or is a maker space available to you?

I actually work in manufacturing management today. One thing I would like to know is how large the market is for OTF knives? They're illegal to carry here in CA. I know several other states have similar laws.

I think this constricted market is one reason why we don't have a inexpensive/big seller available of a quality OTF knife today.
 
The total market for OTFs is represented by the different models currently available from Paragon, Benchmade, Microtech, Protech, Robby Dalton, HK and ... Lightning. Your OTF will compete across the entire market and take share from that total as well as filling an unclaimed niche since there's nothing in your price range. You'll have no competition since no other manufacturer makes anything in the price range you're certain you can produce. You'd have it to yourself and you'd essentially own the niche until someone copied you.

Knife Rights has converted many prohibiting states to auto tolerant. There are currently 39 states where owning an auto is legal and more that will change their laws this year (probably 42 by end of year). Their efforts are why you're seeing the growth in makes/models/brands of OTFs.

As I said, I publically pledge that I will introduce you to all the manufacturers and strongly support you if you make this a reality.

Have you taken your Lightning apart and replaced the springs yet?
 
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I began to get serious about knives about 16 years ago. I now have many contacts and even friends in the knife-making community. With a few notable exceptions (like my friend Andy Roy of Fiddleback Forge, and our own Sam Owens), hso introduced me to those contacts.

There are many very knowledgeable people in the gun and knife communities. hso, however, has the widest knowledge base of anyone I know in the knife world, which is why I asked him to co-moderate this forum with me. If he makes an authoritative statement about knife manufacture, it's a safe bet he knows what he's talking about.

John Shirley
 
If Aragon will design and build a working proto I'll make sure it gets to one of the manufacturers. We'll call the slim model the Unicorn, the heavy duty the Rhino and the "marine" version the Narwhal. He can make a passle of money off it and ante a bit to THR to keep the lights on.
 
I was asked why I asked a question about OTF's when I "already knew the answer." The answer is Aragorn and HSO getting a new mid range priced OTF knife company off the ground where none exists in the market.

When that happens we all benefit. And like every other knife made in history, someone will come along and copy that. We know this for a fact, and it's the disadvantage of a new design which advances the art. Same as watches, cars, guns, furniture. Knives aren't alone in being replicated. We are all communicating on this forum precisely because of the growth of the IBM clone home computer market.

When no patent exists intellectual property is ephemeral. As Mr. Walker about his liner lock. I don't hear folks up in arms about his IP being stolen from him, which makes the Microtech vs Lightning debate somewhat selective. IIRC a famous slipjoint maker started up in the 1930's by hiring the master cutler away from a competitor - and within just a few years they copied most of the designs he was familiar with and they were selling well.

Put a Microtech and Lightning on a table and ask passersby which is the expensive original and I will put my money on the public knowing quite well which. Do the same with an original Cobra and the typical kit tricked out with all the latest accessories and you'll get the same. The public knows - it's even a long standing joke among Cobra kit owners that they are always asked "is it real?" It's expected in America that things ARE copied.

Basically we innovate a new style and then manufacture enough of them to satisfy demand at a good price. If competition starts taking away our sales then a lesser priced model may be needed to dampen it. Two case examples happening right now - the Ruger LCP for $200, the new Colt AR's for $650. Although somewhat belated by Colt it's a seachange from their former policy.

If Aragorn gets a new knife company up then one of the current makers might try to respond in the same price range and please do not be surprised if they reach out to an off shore company for a decent quality product that increased their profit margin vs making it in the good ol USA. Boker has done it with Sanremu knives and it might be ironic to see some of the Hong Kong knockoffs getting shipped in for assembly here. They might even leave the blade markings as is. :scrutiny:

Looking forward to some quality affordable OTF's. The market will open up, it's just a matter of who will take advantage of it.
 
My experience with OTF autos is limited to the Microtech Troodon and Makora. I liked the Makora better, although the current generation Ultratech and Troodons have grippier surfaces. The release button is stiff enough on Microtechs that it is helpful to have some sort of grippy surface. The Troodon was small enough and smooth enough (plain black finish aluminum) that I always wondered if I was going to get a finger on the blade as it came out.

I don't own autos anymore, can't afford to own knives I don't carry anymore, and can't legally carry them in Minnesota.
 
The answer is Aragorn and HSO getting a new mid range priced OTF knife company off the ground where none exists in the market.

Not quite. I don't think for a moment that Aragon can deliver on his claims, BUT I've been wrong before and if I am I'll do everything within my power to use every relationship I have in the industry to make it work for him and vocally admit he worked out the technical challenges that I and a manufacturer of OTFs think can't be practically done. I am essentially throwing down the gauntlet in challenge to prove himself right and me wrong, but publically offering to eat crow and make his idea practical reality if he can actually make it possible to produce a Paragon/HK quality OTF that will MSRP for $80. If he can, he'll enrich himself, the knife community and (hopefully) THR. I hope I'm wrong and he's right, but I'd bet the price of the first ten knives only a knife that doesn't meet the minimum quality requirements (equal to Paragon or HK) could be manufactured for an MSRP of $80.
 
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I think Aragon is pretty right on about this. Yeah "tenths" are stupid measurements unless you are talking long distance precision shooting or watches ect. . I disassembled a very nice looking "clone" of a micro tech from Korea that was just over $100 on Gunbroker and was very impressed compared to my "real" OTF knives. The vendor on Gunbroker "QC" s them he buys from Korea by disassemble, "touching up" here and there (after a few I'm sure he knows where to look ) and lubricating with a good grease and checking action before repackaging. I think he Cerracotes the Aluminum handle while apart too ! The blades are supposed to be D2 and seem pretty dang strong with good grind lines and decent sharpness. All for 125$ US . The parts are pretty beefy BTW just a little "as CNCed" compared to a Bench made or Micro tech.
 
Gordon,

The problem is that importing parts made in Korea that only need assembly and coating is against customs regulations so it violates the law as well as the terms of the challenge. Making a quality piece in America is the challenge, not to mention not stealing someone else's design to turn a buck.
 
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That is a problem HSO I agree. Just saying it can be done. It has the switch on the side rather than top, otherwise pretty close. Parts in the mechanism a little cruder but beefy , just saying I don't understand why an automated machine shop could not turn something out for about $50 in parts and spend another $50-75 handwork and painting and assembly.
 
If your theoretical manufacturer has $50 in parts and $75 in labor you don't have a $125 knife. You have a $125x1.10x1.3x2 knife or $350. The manufacturer makes only 10%, if they're lucky, in the knife industry (often 7% is realized). They depend upon a volume to get their gross. The distributor then marks up 30% buying a volume of a hundred to a thousand pieces from the manufacturer that has to be warehoused and distributed to the retailers and the consumer is expected to pay roughly twice what the retailer pays for "retail" (but "street" price is what most people pay and that's commonly closer to 30-50% above what the retailer paid). If the knife is an MSRP of $125 your manufacturer has the reverse equation or around $40 in total production cost without all the indirect costs being considered that can really kill a business to make such a knife as envisioned. Sorry if the numbers aren't very precise just rolling out of bed this morning, but they're good for ballpark estimates on what's behind the cost of a knife. The problem then is how many must be manufactured and sold to make a minimum gross profit to make that product worth producing by the manufacturer instead of another product that will make both higher percentages and higher gross numbers allowing the manufacturer to make more money and pay for new equipment, better salaries and the lousy selling other product they took a risk on tooling up for. Thats why so many companies have gone to a volume sales model to commercial customers since they can get more of the distributor/wholeseller percentage for themselves and moving some of their risk to the large retailer and distributor that is willing to invest in large numbers early to get their discounts. Yech! The knife industry is small and profits are not high for anyone in it by a lot of people's standards so there is undeniably a drive to make the "coolest" items expensive for a luxury market niche, but the U.S. manufacturer is pretty squeezed in it.

Coincident to this discussion there's going to be a seminar at Blade Show this year that bears on what we've been talking about.
BLADE Show University, “Your Design Into Production” with custom knifemaker Brian Tighe and CRKT founder and chairman Rod Bremer - See more at: http://www.blademag.com/blog/steve-...D160426&utm_medium=email#sthash.YKst1BZk.dpuf
 
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Not quite. I don't think for a moment that Aragon can deliver on his claims, BUT I've been wrong before and if I am I'll do everything within my power to use every relationship I have in the industry to make it work for him and vocally admit he worked out the technical challenges that I and a manufacturer of OTFs think can't be practically done. I am essentially throwing down the gauntlet in challenge to prove himself right and me wrong, but publically offering to eat crow and make his idea practical reality if he can actually make it possible to produce a Paragon/HK quality OTF that will MSRP for $80. If he can, he'll enrich himself, the knife community and (hopefully) THR. I hope I'm wrong and he's right, but I'd bet the price of the first ten knives only a knife that doesn't meet the minimum quality requirements (equal to Paragon or HK) could be manufactured for an MSRP of $80.

Don't you dare try to speak for me. That's terribly bad form.

What I said was given sufficient market demand, a good design and a good manufacturing process, there could be excellent OTF knives for not much more than excellent manual or side opening autos. They're simply not that complicated of an instrument, nor are the material costs/knife that great.

I also reject the belief that it takes over-tolerancing (5/10,000") to build a quality OTF. That smacks of a poor design to me and/or a sales gimmick.

After doing a bit of research I really don't think there's sufficient demand for a mid-priced quality OTF. While I would certainly buy one I think most of the market (which I suspect is comparatively small) due to existing laws is satisfied by the $29.95 and under or over $200/unit offerings.
 
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