Outlandish, even by Californa standards. How many bites at the apple does one get?

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alan

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Legal fight targets gun design in fatality
Resurrected civil lawsuit against Beretta

By Glenn Chapman, STAFF WRITER

OAKLAND -- Lawyers Monday will resume battling about whether the Beretta company is responsible for a Berkeley teenager's shooting death because the design of its semi-automatic pistol didn't make it obvious there was a bullet in the chamber.

A resurrected civil lawsuit against Beretta U.S.A. charges a gun design flaw resulted in the accidental killing of Griffin "Kenzo" Dix in May 1994.

Beretta's defense team has countered that fault lies with the family of Michael Soe, who was 14 years old when he aimed his father's Beretta 92 Compact L handgun at Dix and pulled the trigger without making certain the chamber was empty. Dix was shot in the heart.

"If a cheap disposable camera can tell you when it's loaded, surely a handgun should indicate when there is a bullet in the chamber," Dix's father, Griffin Dix, wrote in a local newspaper editorial published after legislation was passed requiring clear chamber-loaded indicators and mechanisms that make guns inoperable if bullet

clips are removed. "Effective designs for loaded-chamber indicators and magazine disconnect safety devices have been available for many decades."

The 9-mm Beretta pistol that killed Dix was defective because the chamber-loaded indicator was tiny and difficult to see, the suit against the gun maker charges. The indicator on the pistol was a small red dot that rose a millimeter when a round was in the chamber.

Soe got the gun from a camera bag next to his father's bed and popped out the magazine, thinking he had unloaded the weapon before pointing it at his friend, according to Griffin Dix.

Soe's dad, Clarence, reportedly bought the gun the previous year.

Griffin Dix maintains Soe would not have squeezed the trigger if the Beretta had been designed to make it easy to see a bullet was in the chamber. Griffin and Lynn Dix, a Berkeley couple, filed a wrongful death suit in Alameda County Superior Court in 1995. The suit demanded $7.5 million in damages. A civil trial ended with jurors exonerating Beretta.

The way was cleared for a retrial after an appellate court ruled a panelist came to the jury box convinced it was Clarence Soe's responsibility, not the gun maker's, to ensure the pistol was properly stored and his son was taught firearm safety.

"I believe in parental responsibility," the juror was quoted as saying in court documents. "There is too much laxness in society today."

The juror was "belligerent and domineering," disrupted deliberations, denigrated dissenting members of the panel and browbeat peers to his position, appellate court documents indicate.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Gordon Baranco is presiding over the new jury trial. Michael Soe was among those called to testify since opposing lawyers made opening statements to jurors Dec. 2. Presentation of evidence is to continue in Baranco's courtroom in the County Administration Building at 1221 Oak St.
 
The way was cleared for a retrial after an appellate court ruled a panelist came to the jury box convinced it was Clarence Soe's responsibility, not the gun maker's, to ensure the pistol was properly stored and his son was taught firearm safety.

Its good to see at least one of the jurors was a sensible, clear headed thinker. He was probably dismissed shortly after the outburst. :rolleyes: If my son even ACTS in an unsafe manner he will be nursing knuckle prints in his forehead.
 
I have this fantasy...Jef Cooper gets on the jury....and starts talking about the 4 rules...and they get it....
 
"If a cheap disposable camera can tell you when it's loaded, surely a handgun should indicate when there is a bullet in the chamber," Dix's father, Griffin Dix, wrote in a local newspaper editorial published after legislation was passed requiring clear chamber-loaded indicators and mechanisms that make guns inoperable if bullet clips are removed. "Effective designs for loaded-chamber indicators and magazine disconnect safety devices have been available for many decades."

Its apparent that Griffin Dix has never been taught the 4 rules of safe gun handling. #1 says that every gun is loaded.
 
Malone.....................................................:rolleyes: Go visit the backstreet boys forum, It's more suited to your mentality. If there is a SLIGHT potential for a "life or death situation" or even severe injury, a slap upside the head is barely cause for your attacks on my character and personal integrity.
 
What came to be known as the '80 SeriesColt 1911 Pistol modifications that were supposed to enhance the safety of what was already an adequately "safe" pistol always struck me as superfluous. Additionally, they messed up the trigger mechanism.

Other than that, the 1911 design pistol was already safe "for already for all but fools", there being no way at all to get past that consideration with mechanical devices of any sort, firearms or otherwise.

In any case, the basic rules of safe, proper gun handling still apply. In this case, at least the shooter violated all of them, and there is absolutely nothing that Beretta or any other maker can do about human stupidity.
 
Gee Malone, where were you when DISCIPLINE meant something other than a means for liberal pinkos to intrude in people's lives ??????? You teach your son, I'll teach mine. Then MYOFB ! For the record, the statement was used for demonstrative purposes. No, my son is well rehearsed in safety and handling. Not only with guns, but with many things including common sense.

Edited for: I don't mean to sound like such an *** but there are few instances that warrant this type of discipline. Irreversible accidents included. This is by no means a measure of my character, certainly not on an internet message board.
Thank You,
Carl
 
"CC:

You're not making sense, and making us all look bad in the process. If your son has a firearm in his hands and is doing something dangerous, you already failed to train him well. If he hasn't yet, a "slap upside the head" is child abuse. Period."

I was brought up around firearms. Taken out to shoot by many folks including one guy who would take 10-15 boys out shooting. If anyone of us would have done something that stupid, at a much younger age then this, I would have come home with knuckles prints on my ear. And my father would have given me more. (Curiously, I would have been more hurt for letting my father down in this situation then a backslap)

And yes, the rules were very carefully explained to me in great detail.

Funny thing though, no one ever came home with knuckle prints. Know why? Because the standards for behaviour around guns were made exceptionally clear. We knew there were immediate and sudden consequences for bad behaviour. Part of this was an immediate and unforgettable lesson in consequences.

You consider it child abuse. I consider what that father neglected to teach his children child abuse of a more invidious variety. He didn't teach them consequences, and they got to learn about them the hard way, via life. Now that kid has to live with killing his sister. He could have gotten over a backslap.

The privilege of handling firearms comes with heavy responsibility. There is real ability to do damage to yourself, and those around you. I have no problem with a parent levying heavy penalities for infractions of those rules. I also expect those parents to have carefully explained the rules in detail to those children.
 
Thanks for confirming for all of the antis that we're a bunch of crude, violent neanderthals.

Are you just a child abuser, or are you also a drunk driver?

Nothing like bifurcation to make yourself sound dumb.

When I shot at USMC ranges while in the Navy, the rangemasters made it clear that they carried pistols in order to shoot anybody who pulled a loaded weapon off the line. Would that be preferable?
 
Anyway back on topic...

"The 9-mm Beretta pistol that killed Dix was defective because the chamber-loaded indicator was tiny and difficult to see"

Notice how they are suing the gunmaker who HAD the indicator? Beretta would have been better off not putting the thing on.

Also, now that all CA guns will have to have such an indicator come 2005, is this an open door to sue any manufacturer who doesn't make the indicator "big enough" or "bright enough" or "easy" to see?
 
"If a cheap disposable camera can tell you when it's loaded,
Maybe I'm just dumb, but has anyone (besides the folks at the photolab who pull the film out) ever seen a disposable camera without film in it.

surely a handgun should indicate when there is a bullet in the chamber,"
Foolproof way to find out: pull the slide back.

make guns inoperable if bullet clips are removed.
Yet another ignorant writer. It's called a MAGAZINE, genius.

the design of its semi-automatic pistol didn't make it obvious there was a bullet in the chamber.
Actually, if you're looking down the sights, (Skunk and any other Beretta fiends, back me up here) that millimeter is plenty. Which tells me our Junior Dumb##s of the Day just did a point and shoot.

So...according to the dead kid's parents, Beretta is responsible because their pistol didn't have waving red flags and flahsing lights to tell people it's loaded.

Junior Dumb##s of the Day, and his parents who should have taught him gun safety if they're going to have a gun around the house, aren't responsible because 1) they don't have enough money to be worth suing, and 2) suing them doesn't further any political agenda.

I'm a firm believer that stupidity should be painful. Unfortunately, in this case, the stupid people weren't the people who got hurt.

Just as an aside, can anyone show me a firearm where the 'loaded chamber indicator' is anything more than a tiny metal bit with some red/orange paint on it?
 
Gee Malone, where were you when DISCIPLINE meant something other than a means for liberal pinkos to intrude in people's lives ???????
Uh, right. "Liberal pinkos" can be blamed for everything, I guess. It all makes sense now...

Please, CC or pp, explain to me how hitting a kid in the head hard enough to leave knuckle marks is dicipline.

This is all silly. I don't care what you think of dicipline. What I care about is how this makes the rest of us look.
 
>CC:
>
>You're not making sense, and making us all look bad in the process. If >your son has a firearm in his hands and is doing something dangerous, >you already failed to train him well. If he hasn't yet, a "slap upside the >head" is child abuse. Period.

No, NOT disciplining your kids is child abuse.

My mom hit me if I was a dumbass. So what? nothin wrong with the occasional smack upside the head. Now, if said smack is done with a bat or a stick, then it's abuse.

The problem with kids these days (holy crap. I sound old) is that they DON'T get smacked enough. For example: my younger sister, who rarely got smacked because my mom decided it was wrong, is a complete and total f**ckup. Why? because when she got caught stealing money from mom's purse, or getting a tongue ring, or smoking, or drinking, or any of the other ???? she did, she got GROUNDED. In these days, when a child's room is more technologically advanced than the pentagon, grounding doesn't work.

And I agree. It's nobody's business how you discipline your kids. If I ever have one (god forbid) and he does something retarded with my firearm, you can bet your sweet ??? he'll be nursing a black eye. My life is WAY more important than any concept you may have about "abuse"


James
 
I'd really like to see their idea of a loaded chamber indicator that isn't flawed.

I can't think of a device that would tell somebody the status of a firearm in a way that someone who has no knowledge of firearms would understand. Look at cars; every car I've seen has a gauge telling the driver how much fuel the vehicle has. However that is useless if someone doesn't know to check the gauge.
 
That's enough of the personal stuff from both of you (Malone and CC.) Back to the topic.

My take? Thank God Mr. Soe didn't take his son to a range and try to teach him how to handle a gun safely--the kid might have wanted to go shooting again, and sooner or later a horrible accident might have occurred.

And thank God his father wasn't such an abusive brute as to smack his kid for endangering someone's life, or that fatal chest wound could have been replaced with something really bad, like stung pride and a bruise.

Me? My dad never had to smack me, because I knew he'd do it if I pushed far enough. I never pushed that far. By the time I was 14, I was the same height as dad and a good deal more muscular, but as dad always said "You've gotta sleep sometime, and I've got a boat oar in the garage." Frankly I got hit by a lot of people in my youth and never really minded a good shot, but I was terrified of being such a lousy person that my dad would actually hit me. Maybe you had to have a dad as admirable as mine to understand.

If only someone had been around to set that ignorant redneck straight . . . . . when I think of the irreparable damage he did to my fragile little mind. . . .
 
"Effective designs for loaded-chamber indicators and magazine disconnect safety devices have been available for many decades."

It HAS a loaded chamber indicator. Should have thrown the suit out to start with.
 
Langenator:

Re "Loaded chamber indicators", or whatever one might choose to call the things, every post WW2 Browning Hi-Power, and or Makarov Pistol that I've ever seen, that "little piece of metal" you mentioned was otherwise known as the extractor, and I've yet to see one that was painted.

Every one on the above mentioned pistols was "feelable" due to it being slightly sprung out, when there was a cartridge or even an empty case in the chamber. Also, pulling thew slide back just a bit allows one to visually determine the condition of the chamber, loaded or empty.

The kid that did the shooting in this case was just plain dumb, and that is the long and the short of it. Of course, he might have had considerable help from an equally dumb father, as seems to have been the case.

In closing, I'm still given to inquire as to whether there aren't some limits to the idiocy practiced in Caloifornia?
 
I'd like to know what these folks think an adequate LCI would be. How'bout a flashing red light and a klaxon?

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER BRAAAP BRAAP BRAAP
 
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