Over/unders

[DanTheFarmer]

I'm in the "I don't get it" camp too. I'll ask questions, not to argue but to learn something. I think my bias will show through but I can be persuaded.

Why do the barrels need to be regulated? If they are exactly parallel the center of the patterns should be less than an inch different. That's not much at 20 yards and shotguns are typically patterned using a 30" circle.

Why are the cheapies clumsy and unbalanced? The stocks are pieces of wood. They can be machined carved in the same shapes as the fine handling, expensive guns just as easily as not. Just put the proper dimensions in the CNC machines, correct?

I actually don't care for fancy engraving. It certainly doesn't affect function. Are there high quality O/U's that don't have the "bling"?

I understand good looking wood costs money and I get pride of ownership. I'm not putting it down at all but what breaks on the cheapies that doesn't break on the expensive ones?

What is it about the expensive models that allows you to break targets that the cheapies miss?

Thanks for any input.

I'm currently using my Mossberg 500 pump breaking clays in the "back 40" and at my range. I'm learning the sport and discovering the limitations of my Mossberg and thinking about my next move.

Dan

 

[Virginian]

Here's one for you; I don't like O/Us. I think they look and feel clunky. I will always remember what Gough Thomas said about our eyes not being one on top of the other. I don't care how well made they are or who else likes them. The only one I have really liked in 54 years of shooting was a little 28 gauge Beretta. I am not saying they are bad, just that they do not suit me at all. You do not need one to shoot anything. I am amazed at the HUGE percentage of people on internet forums who have been sold on the idea that you have to have an O/U. To each their own.

 

[eastbank]

i don,t know where to start. most barrels on o/u are sodered together and they have be aliened properly(not easy). the wood has to be shaped, checkered and finished along with the right dementions for the clay games the shotgun will be used for,(adjustable comb,adjustable butt and grip). very good shotguns can be had without being to fancy(your right it don,t make the shotgun shoot any better). any firearm can break or wear with prolonged use, but the odds are better that a upper end shotgun will fire thousands and thousands of rounds before it needs any service and service will be available. so in the end all the metal parts have to be hardened, finished and fitted together with wood into a semi work of at, haveing taken a few upper end shotguns apart i,m always amazed at the fit and finish that goes inside were they are not seen,but are so important. a shotgun that is made for the clay games will make it alot easier to crush the little orange birds that at times will make you shake your head in disblief. i started shooting clays in the mid 60,s and just hung in the 19-21 out of 25, ontill i was lent a rem 870 trap shotgun and in a few weeks i broke my first 25-25. can you become a good clay games shot with a standard field shotgun? yes but its easier with the right shotgun. and remember that the cost for a upper end shotgun will be small compared to the cost of ammo over the years of shooting you will enjoy with the upper end shotgun and you may be able to sell that shotgun for close to or more than you paid for it. i am not a expert and don,t claim to be, only speaking for my own experence. hope the helps, eastbank.

 

[HexHead]

I actually don't care for fancy engraving. It certainly doesn't affect function. Are there high quality O/U's that don't have the "bling"?

If you can find one since they were just discontinued, the Beretta SV-10. Or a Browning Cynergy. Your going to spend about $3000 for a Sporting version of either.

 

[eastbank]

i shot four rounds of trap last night, 25-25 with my 12ga browning bt-100, 24-25 with my new browning trap o/u and 41-50 with my double barreled browning 20ga bss sporter. i have not shot a 25-25 with my field bss 20ga, only 23-25 several times as its a field gun and shoots pretty flat. i own double barreled shotguns but find them not quite right for me at the clay games(can they be used? yes), i do like the double barrels for field use. the two i realy like for hunting are my browning bss 20ga and a old for sterlingworth 16ga. they are a joy to carry and use. eastbank.

 

[oneounceload]

Why do the barrels need to be regulated? If they are exactly parallel the center of the patterns should be less than an inch different. That's not much at 20 yards and shotguns are typically patterned using a 30" circle

Because they better NOT be parallel, but converging

I'm not putting it down at all but what breaks on the cheapies that doesn't break on the expensive ones?

Triggers, soldering, ejectors, firing pins, springs, barrel ribs, the action, etc. - Most do not get the same quality treatment

Are there high quality O/U's that don't have the "bling

On a high-end gun - like Perazzi, Fabbri, etc. - you can order it anyway you'd like it. Your typical Perazzi target gun is plain

Why are the cheapies clumsy and unbalanced? The stocks are pieces of wood. They can be machined carved in the same shapes as the fine handling, expensive guns just as easily as not. Just put the proper dimensions in the CNC machines, correct?

No, barrels and wood to metal fit is finished by hand - on the better guns, and omitted on the cheap ones to keep the cost low. On your better high-end guns, the stocks are custom built to your individual dimensions assuring a perfect fit to the shooter. Even on Brownings, which many seem to be "high-end" (they aren't, they are entry level to decent), the barrels are thick and heavy making handling bulky. It is even worse on the cheaper guns. It is extremely difficult and time consuming to turn barrels down to a thinness that still is safe, yet makes them feel like a wand in your hands and not a 4X4

You do not need one to shoot anything. I am amazed at the HUGE percentage of people on internet forums who have been sold on the idea that you have to have an O/U

True, you don't but if you are serious about target shooting, especially sporting clays, it can be an advantage. Perazzi has won more Olympic medals than every other maker combined - their O/Us are used by just about every team, including the US. These guns are designed to easily go over a million rounds without serious hiccups.
I don't think people have been sold on the idea - they see good shooters using them and the desire to "be like Mike" takes over. IMO, someone would be better off spending $1500 on a good semi gas gun than buy a cheap O/U

 

[DanTheFarmer]

Thanks to all who provided input. This is the kind of discussion where I can really learn something. I have some follow up questions.

1. "It is extremely difficult and time consuming to turn barrels down to a thinness that still is safe, yet makes them feel like a wand in your hands and not a 4X4" Why? Isn't this what CNC machines do best? Once an acceptable prototype is built the dimensions are fed in and a bagillion copies are produced cheaply by the CNC machine.

2. I understand metal to wood fit is hand finished and expensive on high end guns. Does metal to wood fit effect handling/balance? Wouldn't an unfinished and unfitted high end gun handle and balance very nearly the same as its beautiful fully finished and fitted counterpart?

3. I see the point made as to the value of custom fitting. When I win the lottery I'll stop by Saville Row for a custom suit and look sharp when I visit Holland and Holland for my bespoke shotgun!

4. Barrel convergence. Why? If the patterns converge I see a triangle with the point of convergence as the apex. Two legs will be from the apex back down the line of flight to the muzzles. These two sides will be of equal length. The third side of the triangle is the center to center distance between the muzzles. This will be on the order of 1". Surely this isn't much different than being parallel.

Thanks again.

Dan

 

[beeb173]

the reason i started this thread is because i figured an O/U would be easier to clean and could be had for less than a Benelli. now i'm gonna revisit the Benelli's. thanks for everyone's input.

 

[oneounceload]

Why? Isn't this what CNC machines do best? Once an acceptable prototype is built the dimensions are fed in and a bagillion copies are produced cheaply by the CNC machine.

No, it is done by hand by a master craftsman - the hand is more sensitive,..Even if you did you CNC, those machines are very expensive. All those copies can be close, but never the same as cutting tools wear

Does metal to wood fit effect handling/balance?

Of course it does. Poor fitting can lead to cracked stocks, lousy handling and unbalanced handling

I see the point made as to the value of custom fitting. When I win the lottery I'll stop by Saville Row for a custom suit and look sharp when I visit Holland and Holland for my bespoke shotgun

Try a Purdey or David McKay Brown, or possibly a Hofer or Ollendorf

Barrels are typically designed to shoot to the same POI at a certain distance - yes the convergence is small, but it takes skill to make that happen and not one shooting high and left and another shooting low and right

 

[eastbank]

one oz load, you say it better than i can,thanks. eastbank.

 

[oneounceload]

Thanks

I guess what I am trying to get across is if you think of a shotgun the same way as you view a hammer or screwdriver, save your money and get a Mossberg or 870 pump and go have fun - that IS what it is all about. However, if you want to compete, or take pride in being able to afford a nice thing (gun, wife, car, boat - forget wife ), or you want to simply experience something that is amazing to handle compared to what you're used to - go for quality. My MINI is NOT a BMW or Porsche, no matter how much I wish it was, and it handles pretty good, but nowhere NEAR what they do - it also doesn't cost what they do. If I win the lotto am I going to be getting something faster and nicer? yep, along with a trip to Italy for some nice guns. But I shoot with a lot of folks who DO have the means to buy these guns, I have shot them, I can tell the difference between them and my Browning, and it is amazing. many will consioder a Browning or Beretta a high-end gun; yet once you've handled and shot a Perazzi or Fabbri (talk about expensive!), or even the new Kreighoff Parcour, you'll begin to understand why these folks buy these guns. They are more than "just a tool" to them; they appreciate the exquisite workmanship and skill it takes to make one of them, and they really appreciate how they are fitted to them for maximum success

If you ever find yourself at a gun club where everything from Browning/Beretta to Perazzi/Kreighoff or better are, see if you can beg to use them for a few shots. The trigger alone will amaze you

 

[DanTheFarmer]

Thanks Oneounceload!

I think I'm going to have to be happy going 65 mph in my VW. It is just as fast as 65 mph in a Porsche but not as much style.

I don't think I'll shoot enough for the superior reliability of the high end guns to come into play. I know the phrase buy once cry once but if I really get into the sport and have a sub $1000 gun wear out or otherwise fail on me it will have been money well spent on O/U education. At that point I'd have a good idea of exactly what I'd be looking for.

I'll handle a few of the lower end O/U's and see which fits best and make my decision from there.

Dan

 

[oneounceload]

Be careful!.....Once you go down the dark side of clay competitions, the Force will overtake you!...LOL - but it's all good.

 

[Virginian]

I would have zero problem with a two barrel gun where the barrels are parallel. I don't think a 1" difference in point of impact would bother me one bit. Think about it.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

I don't shoot nearly as much as some here (anymore), but I've been shooting shotguns for over 50 years.

Side by sides are great for upland game and waterfowl, but O/Us rule for clays or doves. Don't know why that is, but it just is.

Oh, and a friend (who used to post here) swore by his Huglu or Baikal or whatever it was SxS, until it broke and he couldn't get it fixed right (the lug that holds the forearm on IIRC). He bought a Beretta (Silver Pigeon?) and still uses it as far as I know.

 

[MCgunner]

Damn, I feel left out. 5 dove seasons and I can't get my Spartan to break. But, I'm quite sure it's a piece of crap, 'cause everyone here tells me so. But, I didn't buy it for everyone here, bought it for me. It's a SxS, too, and my favorite dove gun. Often go 50 percent on the little beggars with it. That's pretty good for me. I ain't never been to the olympics or anything.

Then again, I've been shooting Mossbergs for 30 years and never had the safety break, though everyone here assures me they break every other season. Go figure.

I would have zero problem with a two barrel gun where the barrels are parallel. I don't think a 1" difference in point of impact would bother me one bit. Think about it.

Yeah, I don't quite get that one, either.

And, oh, if you wanna go fast, spend less than $15K and get an R1 Yamaha or similar from the Japanese big four. 0-60 in under 3 seconds, 190 mph about bone stock, and great handling for a street bike. You'll get over 40 mpg at legal speeds, too. Of course, the windshield wipers and the heater never seem to work on the things.

 

[jaguarxk120]

Double guns (SxS and O/U) are regulated to shoot the same point of impact at about 40 yards.

If the barrels were parallel then the patterns would be far apart due to the dynamic's of recoil as the gun moves against the shooters shoulder.

If patterns are taken with one shooter and patterns with a different shooter who is of different weight and height they will have different placement on the pattern board.

Not one inch apart!

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Damn, I feel left out. 5 dove seasons and I can't get my Spartan to break. But, I'm quite sure it's a piece of crap, 'cause everyone here tells me so.

I've got the same deal going with a Baikal 28 ga SxS. Bought it cheap, used, and it shoots like pointing your finger. Everybody says Baikals are ugly, but this is a nice looking little thing with a coin finished, engraved action and nice bluing. Killed quite a few doves and clay pigeons with it.

BUT, I've only put a thousand rounds through it at the most. I don't expect it to last like my Citori (1983) has.

 

[eastbank]

to each his own, my own shoot about 400-500 rounds a week and i have never had to leave the line because of gun trouble and i shoot Browning & Remington shotguns. and i think they are very good entry shotguns for the clays games. i had the poops once and had to leave the line in a hurry tho. eastbank.

 

[oneounceload]

Sorry you feel left out McGunner, perhaps one day you'll have the joy of experiencing shooting a quality gun that doesn't handle like a pig on a shovel.
Some folks get it, some dont and that's OK.

 

[MCgunner]

Sorry you feel left out McGunner, perhaps one day you'll have the joy of experiencing shooting a quality gun that doesn't handle like a pig on a shovel.
Some folks get it, some dont and that's OK.

I've already had that pleasure. I TOLD ya I shoot a Spartan.

 

[Virginian]

Legends die hard. I had the opportunity to speak with a gentleman who has regulated barrels for a major 2 barrel gunmaker. The amount a SxS throws patterns to the side due to recoil is almost infinitesimal, ditto for an O/U. Try this; get a laser light shell and make sure it points to actual POI with a single barrel gun that you know where it shoots. Then try it is a double gun that you also know where it shoots. That laser light will be right there.

 

[midland man]

well there must be a lot of rich people in here, as i'm not rich, and so I saved, starved, and sold personal stuff to buy a tristar o/u 12g 3 1/2in chamber with camo stock. so it shoots just fine for me, I've killed many game with it and it just works! I gave over $600 for it and have had no problems thus far!

 

[eastbank]

where it shoots is the key, i have seen and shot o/u shotguns that the poi was alot different from upper verse lower. i have a friend who could hit 21-23 out of 25 with the top barrel, but with the lower barrel 15-16. the saying the patteren board is your friend is very true and it showed the lower barrel had a lower poi. the shotgun was sold and another was bought and he now shoots pretty close to the same numbers with the upper and lower barrels with the same chokes installed. another thing that i find is that if a gun fits you, you will get less fatiqued in long runs of 100 or more and that can make the difference between shooting a good score. i shoot in the low to mid 90,s out of a hundred and my best score was 97-100. i ran 50-50 then 74-75 then 97-100 dropping three birds and i think the three birds i lost was due to getting tired at the end. and i think it would have been worse if the gun did not fit me. i have let young shooters that started shooting trap with their field guns that they had no idea where the shotgun shot(poi) use one of my trap shotguns and you could see their eyes light up when they started hitting 18-19 instead of 11-13. young eyes and reflexes in action are a joy to watch. eastbank

 

[oneounceload]

Don't have to be rich, Midland man to buy something of quality that won't break your first time out and actually has some semblance of decent handling. As I said, some get, some don't, and that's OK