Overheard at the gun show

[igotta40]

Today at the Pasadena Convention Center, as I was trading at a table, I heard at the next table, a vendor hawking concealed carry classes, tell a patron that if he sells two guns in one month then he’s a dealer, and has to have a FFL. That statement may or may not be true, I honestly don’t know, but here’s my question- how does the government know whether a random individual sold a firearm at all, or how many, or when?

At yet another table, a vendor, selling new handguns, tells a potential customer he recently had a BATFE audit and was told some of his firearms are turning up at crime scenes. Auditors said he needs to be more particular about who he sells to. Then he asked potential customer if he has his drivers license. Quite odd.

 

[nettlle]

Gun shows are quite odd.

 

[mope540]

Gun shows are quite odd.

Yeah, now that half of the vendors sell items such as purses, aroma therapy candles, candy, costume jewelry, or cheap gaudy chinese junk knives.

 

[PzGren]

If someone is buying and selling firearms with the intent of making a profit, then an FFL is needed regardless of numbers involved. Someone who buys and sells to enhance a personal collection does not need to get one. Any FFL other than an FFL03 is for commerce, a bona fide dealer, importer, gun smith, or manufacturer.

Of course, there is a large gray area.

 

[JDeere]

That particular show has always been quite odd especially if it was the High Caliber bunch. It was a long time ago when I used to live down there and would occasionally go to that show. Lots of Jerky, jewelry and other assorted wares. New firearms were the norm. The guys with anything interesting did not really care about selling them. They were stuck on what they had on the tag, take it or leave it...

 

[bearcreek]

Today at the Pasadena Convention Center, as I was trading at a table, I heard at the next table, a vendor hawking concealed carry classes, tell a patron that if he sells two guns in one month then he’s a dealer, and has to have a FFL. That statement may or may not be true, I honestly don’t know, but here’s my question- how does the government know whether a random individual sold a firearm at all, or how many, or when?

At yet another table, a vendor, selling new handguns, tells a potential customer he recently had a BATFE audit and was told some of his firearms are turning up at crime scenes. Auditors said he needs to be more particular about who he sells to. Then he asked potential customer if he has his drivers license. Quite odd.

Vendors at gun shows are right up there with cops and gun store employees when it comes to spreading nonsense about gun laws.

 

[igotta40]

Yeah, now that half of the vendors sell items such as purses, aroma therapy candles, candy, costume jewelry, or cheap gaudy chinese junk knives.

And also- 3D printed toys.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

Today at the Pasadena Convention Center, as I was trading at a table, I heard at the next table, a vendor hawking concealed carry classes, tell a patron that if he sells two guns in one month then he’s a dealer, and has to have a FFL. That statement may or may not be true, I honestly don’t know, but here’s my question- how does the government know whether a random individual sold a firearm at all, or how many, or when?

At yet another table, a vendor, selling new handguns, tells a potential customer he recently had a BATFE audit and was told some of his firearms are turning up at crime scenes. Auditors said he needs to be more particular about who he sells to. Then he asked potential customer if he has his drivers license. Quite odd.

Lol, I was at the Tulsa show this past weekend and I had a customer ask for 30 cal, so I looked at him like "what do you mean?", and he was like 30 Cal, so I was like "30 cal what??", then he said they only make one 30 Cal, 30 Cal M1 Carbine" and I was like "ok, but we don't have any of that". At first I thought he meant bullets which is why I was asking 30 cal what at the beginning. But we didn't even have bullets for sale so I should have known lol.

 

[Old Dog]

I heard at the next table, a vendor hawking concealed carry classes, tell a patron that if he sells two guns in one month then he’s a dealer, and has to have a FFL.

Sounds like this guy doesn't have a full understanding of how the Biden admin is having a certain agency interpret some previously codified regulations about what constitutes a "dealer."

This thread refers:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...the-business”-as-a-dealer-in-firearms.922645/

Vendors at gun shows are right up there with cops and gun store employees when it comes to spreading nonsense about gun laws.

Well, as a former member of the law enforcement community, I'd take issue with that premise. Most of the cops that I've known over the years either were quite conversant with a lot of the technicalities of the laws, or they would admit what they did not know.

Of course, I can't speak for the Mayberry Sheriff's Office, but in the current legal, social and political climate, most cops are not willing to "spread nonsense" about any laws, particularly if their knowledge level is lacking. Yes, some agencies and academies have substantially better training and are able to provide their personnel with a far better understanding of state and local statutes. So maybe this might have been somewhat true in some areas in the country, it's just an unfair generalization and statements such as this promote stereotypes.

But you're painting with a broad brush here.

Gun store employees? Most are somewhat trained in verifying 4473s and how to operate sales terminals -- it's their knowledge base about the actual firearms I take issue with mostly. Thankfully, at most of my local dealers and shops, the owners and employees are not only fully up to date on the state laws, but they are also often activists in the 2A/RKBA community.

 

[bearcreek]

But you're painting with a broad brush here.

Absolutely. I always assume that people whose credentials I can't verify don't know what they're talking about until I verify what they're saying with the source.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that a majority of cops are responsible for this. I'm saying that, because of their position, people often assume that they automatically know the firearms laws. This allows a vocal minority to spread incorrect information to the uninitiated who take it as gospel.

 

[CapnMac]

then he said they only make one 30 Cal, 30 Cal M1 Carbine

Was waiting to get some ammo off my buddies at Plinkers Ammo at a show and dude wanted "thirty two" ammo. He had no idea what kind, just that it was "thirty two." After he left, disappointed they were not clairvoyant, I mentioned that at least he had not asked about "nine mil." We all laughed. I was buying 9x17 and 9x19 at the time to ice the cake

 

[Old Dog]

Absolutely. I always assume that people whose credentials I can't verify don't know what they're talking about until I verify what they're saying with the source.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that a majority of cops are responsible for this. I'm saying that, because of their position, people often assume that they automatically know the firearms laws. This allows a vocal minority to spread incorrect information to the uninitiated who take it as gospel.

Okay, fair enough.

Me personally, just don't like being lumped in with gun show vendors and gunshop employees, as most cops probably have a few more semester hours in criminal justice, law enforcement academies, continuing education/in-service and actually having to understand the laws in order to arrest, articulate proper offenses for possible charges, testify in court, etc., than these folks. That said, any LEO worth his/her salt should have a solid grasp on their state's laws and be current in potential changes to the statutes.

As for the uninformed segment of the populace that assumes someone is a subject matter expert on gun laws solely because they sell guns, shame on them, do your own research, don't expect expertise on firearms laws from Old Grumpy at his table full beater mil-surps, broken shotguns and cheap handguns, much less taking as gospel anything said by a minimum wage clerk at Sportsmans Warehouse...

 

[Sniper66]

Do your own research and DO NOT take casual conversations seriously

 

[Bcwitt]

That particular show has always been quite odd especially if it was the High Caliber bunch. It was a long time ago when I used to live down there and would occasionally go to that show. Lots of Jerky, jewelry and other assorted wares. New firearms were the norm. The guys with anything interesting did not really care about selling them. They were stuck on what they had on the tag, take it or leave it...

The pipeline of good surplus has largely dried up. Intersting items are holding value, as there is less & less out there. Not much to see @ gun shows anymore.

 

[Kleanbore]

What is the point of this?

 

[Frulk]

Right up front: Having worked in a gun department of a big box store for 1.5 years I never once heard gun laws discussed by employees outside of the states CCL requirements. And some of that was inaccurate.

Based on my personal experience: Here's some generalized insight to the knowledge base of big box sporting goods store staff:

There are 3 types of employees in these stores:

1: Corporate/lifers: Usually the store manager/loss prevention and department heads. Don't expect that they know much more than you do about any particular product unless its specifically in their department. Salaried employees working whenever needed.

2: Rank and file employees: Full timers (for the most part) working the isles of departments to make a living...usually younger, entry level staff there until they find something better. Turnover is significant in these slots with most being around less then 1.5-2 years.

3: Retired from a previous profession: usually working part-time. there for the store/pro/manufacturers discounts and to make a little extra on the side for whatever hobby they're into. Usually working in departments that correspond with their interests/knowledge base.

Big Box stores do little if any training on their dime. At least for the rank and file on the floor selling the product. I never once received customer service training or anything else by the employer. What usually happens is that a product rep will show up during lunch hours and offer some discount coupon to those present. Say 40% off fishing rods or like item you can order directly from them. Or they actually have product on hand you can buy that's heavily discounted. That's their incentive for you to give up your lunchtime to sit through 30-60 minutes of them giving some details on the product to make you familiar with it during your sales pitch.

As a rule, the retirees are the folks you want to engage if you have questions. Almost always you'll receive better customer service and a broader knowledge base on the topic you're asking about...say reloading for one. Only reloaders in our store which had 10+ gun department employees were the retirees. You were ALWAYS directed by the rank and file to them if it was a reloading question beyond "do you have..."

Some examples related to retiree employees:

Guy I replaced in the gun department shop. Retiree. Prior aerospace engineer with metallurgy background. Specialized in collecting pre-64 Win Model 70's. Guy forgot more about guns than I knew. Before the corp heads cut back on possible liability exposure he did things like rethreading buggered up scope mounting holes, cleaning up crowns etc.

Retiree working part time behind gun counter: Prior machinist. Reloader. Built muzzleloaders from scratch. Competitive target shooter etc. Usually, one or two customers wanting to speak to him specifically if he's working. When I'm in the store not uncommon to hear one or two pages for him about a waiting phone call.

Retiree working bow set up in shop and selling them on the floor: SNCO Mil retiree. Bow hunting for 25 plus years with compound. Solo bow hunts elk at altitude. Builds (not sure if that's the right word) recurves.

A little secret most of you may not be aware of.

Most employees really into guns would always show up in the logistics area when supplies were delivered. The department head would review the document with all guns coming into the store and verify the serial numbers. Guys would ask to see just about anything with a wood stock, say like Ruger M77's, Win's, Browning, any lever etc. to see if there was something they were interested in i.e.......very nice stocks always were culled by an employee and ended up on the lay-away shelf for employees. I seem to remember that at one time we had 14 guns on layaway for the staff. this ALWAYS happened when guns were delivered.

As luck would have it......few years back house behind me was sold. Spoke to my new neighbor one day. Turned out he was retired and currently working for the OTHER big box outdoor franchise. Said they do the same thing as far as training and what I mentioned above.

 

[pharmer]

Just assume that Feds are walking around taking notes, act accordingly. Joe

 

[Old Dog]

As a rule, the retirees are the folks you want to engage if you have questions. Almost always you'll receive better customer service and a broader knowledge base on the topic you're asking about...say reloading for one. Only reloaders in our store which had 10+ gun department employees were the retirees.

I have observed this. One store I frequented had a retired cop, who'd been a firearms instructor, was also a life-long hunter, guy knew everything about everything. Another shop had a retired Marine who loved mil-surps and was a true 1911 expert. When these guys both retired within a few months of each other, they were replaced by young twenty-something dudes with no experience in hunting, reloading or law enforcement -- both hardcore Tactical Tommies who didn't know what they didn't know. Although one had four years in the Army and thought his one tour in Iraq made him an expert on every firearm in the world -- as well as what every state's gun law said. These guys did spout often and loudly about the changes in our state's gun laws, but unfortunately lacked perspective and had no idea about the history of the state's gun laws and little idea of all the nuances within the statutes.

Just assume that Feds are walking around taking notes, act accordingly. Joe

What is said at the gun show, stays at the gun show.

 

[dogtown tom]

Today at the Pasadena Convention Center, as I was trading at a table, I heard at the next table, a vendor hawking concealed carry classes, tell a patron that if he sells two guns in one month then he’s a dealer, and has to have a FFL. That statement may or may not be true,

Currently NOT true.
There has never been a magic number of guns a person must sell to be considered "engaged in the business". ATF even has a nifty brochure to help guide people as to whether they need an FFL:
DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

Further, ATF even has a brochure to guide FFL as well as nonlicensees when they are at a gun show:
Important Notice to FFLs and Other Participants at Gun Shows

I honestly don’t know, but here’s my question- how does the government know whether a random individual sold a firearm at all, or how many, or when?

While a particular state may have laws requiring registration, most don't and neither does federal law.

At yet another table, a vendor, selling new handguns, tells a potential customer he recently had a BATFE audit and was told some of his firearms are turning up at crime scenes.

Short "time to crime" guns put an FFL under the microscope, but aren't an indicator that the dealer is violating the law. If a dealer has a large number of crime guns being traced to him, ATF may require additional reporting by that FFL. They'll also want to know if the FFL is training his employees in how to spot a straw purchaser or what constitutes a straw sale.
It's the risk a dealer runs by selling at a large venue like a gun show. Hundreds of people milling around and the guy looking at your guns at 10am may send in his girlfriend at 2pm to buy.

Auditors said he needs to be more particular about who he sells to.

Which is a pretty stupid comment by the IOI. "Being more particular" means what? Don't sell to certain races, ethnicities, anyone under age forty? While an FFL can choose to sell or deny a sale to anyone for any reason, denying a sale based solely on a persons race, age or ethnicity violates federal law.

Thats the Catch 22..........the dealer isn't selling to a prohibited person, he's selling to someone that isn't prohibited, but is buying on behalf of the actual buyer/transferee. The dealer runs a Brady check on that buyer.

Then he asked potential customer if he has his drivers license. Quite odd.

Not odd at all. I ask every buyer the same question, because a buyer must present a government issued photo ID when purchasing a firearm from a licensed dealer.

 

[kwb377]

At yet another table, a vendor, selling new handguns...he asked potential customer if he has his drivers license. Quite odd.

Every gun I've purchased from a dealer, they've asked for my DL before proceeding with the transaction after I've said, "I'll take it". The buyer must be a U.S. citizen and (for a handgun) reside in the state of purchase. Checking someone's DL usually verifies both before the dealer wastes their time with the paperwork only to find out later the buyer is ineligible. Not really odd at all.

 

[igotta40]

Every gun I've purchased from a dealer, they've asked for my DL before proceeding with the transaction after I've said, "I'll take it". The buyer must be a U.S. citizen and (for a handgun) reside in the state of purchase. Checking someone's DL usually verifies both before the dealer wastes their time with the paperwork only to find out later the buyer is ineligible. Not really odd at all.

The DL is always required, of course. Rather, what was odd to me, was that the dealer appeared to be giving his potential customer the “brush off” with his comments, then did a 180 and started a transaction.

 

[lightman]

I've heard some silly stuff said at gun shows. "The 9mm Parabellum is more powerful than the 9mm Luger" comes to mind. But I do enjoy visiting with the more knowledgeable venders and other like minded people.

 

[dogtown tom]

The buyer must be a U.S. citizen and (for a handgun) reside in the state of purchase.

Being a U.S. citizen has never been a requirement to purchase a firearm.
If you read the ATF Form 4473 you'll note several questions regarding citizenship or immigration status.
I transfer 3-5 guns a month to Permanent Residents and at least one a month to a nonimmigrant alien (someone residing in the US on a temporary worker, student or tourist visa). Those "nonimmigrant" aliens must also possess a Texas Hunting License.

Checking someone's DL usually verifies both before the dealer wastes their time with the paperwork only to find out later the buyer is ineligible. Not really odd at all

A drivers license does not provide proof of citizenship.
It also does not prove the buyer is a resident of that state. When the buyer completes the 4473, he'll certify that his answers are "true correct and complete". That means if his answers to Residence Address is not his actual residence address, he must provide additional government issued documents that show his name and his current address.

 

[hso]

That statement may or may not be true,

It isn't unless the express purpose is to make a profit and it is done month after month, but consider you're at a gunshow instead of a conference of experts.

 

[Otto]

^^ you are allowed to sell guns for a profit without an FFL as long as it isn’t your “livelihood”. The key word is livelihood.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download