Oyez! Oyez! You are on a THR jury

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and the jury's job is not to vote by conscience but b fact.
The jury, in its infinitie wisdom (or soft-hearted emotion) may do as it will - law or no law - as it is "Of your peers".

Too many who serve on juries are not aware that - as a juror - they have the ultimate power of decision... contrary to "popular opinion".

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A jury can debate ethics or anything else it wants to. I've been on four juries, and I can guarantee you that we covered a lot of ground.

As far as El Tejon's original query, I'd go with self defense, as would the jurors with whom I've served. As for the "felon in possession", all it takes is one stubborn juror to hang it up. Jury nullification doesn't need to be mentioned by the recalitrant juror. Odds are, though, that the accused would have to have had a pretty clean record for a good long time. If he had a bad rep, even a jury nullification type of person can figure we're better off if he's put away. So, in the real world, that's an, "I dunno," IMO. Clean guy? I'd let him off.

Reminds me of my grandfather's one jury experience. Texas Panhandle, around WW I. The accused was a cattle rustler. "We knew he'd been doing it, even though they couldn't prove it. We gave him five years."

Art
 
Something to consider. Voting him not guilty of the SD shooting but convicting him of the felon in posession rap might put him in jail for life anyways because of the 'three strikes and you're out' law.
 
Voting him not guilty of the SD shooting but convicting him of the felon in posession rap might put him in jail for life anyways because of the 'three strikes and you're out' law.

His pastcriminal history might be a good reason for that to happen....but then again, maybe not...it depends on what he did in the past.
 
answer, Indiana's version of "three strikes and you are out" was held unconstitutional by the Indiana Supreme Court in 1976. This was just a couple of years before this law was invented in California.

We do have a Habitual Offender statute, but it is not at issue in this hypothetical.
 
The jury, in its infinitie wisdom (or soft-hearted emotion) may do as it will - law or no law - as it is "Of your peers".


[pet peeve rant mode = ON]
No, you do not get a "jury of your peers". Your constitutional right is to an "impartial jury". The 4th Amendment reads:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

A jury of your peers is, in fact, banned under Art II, Sec 9:
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States:

A "jury of your peers" is from English common law. It was to prevent the Nobility from having to face the wrath of the commoners and peasants. So only Dukes, Earls, and Barons could sit on the juries of other Dukes, Earls an Barons.
[/pet peeve rant mode = OFF]
 
Kansas just passed thier new CCW (congrats) with several restrictions, one being not allowing carry in a church.
Now, next year sometime, some idiot decides he needs to kill all the christians so he loads up the next sunday and takes a stroll over to the local church. After he barges in the door and yells 'say hello to my little friend', he caps the first man sitting in the pew next to him, but a guy sitting three rows away stands up and puts two in his chest, dropping said assailant.

Fast forward, guy is facing violations of the CCW law now, because he carried in church. Don't try to argue that it would never happen because he saved lives. Some overzealous anti gun prosecutor will try to use this to make the CCW law look bad and hopefully get it repealed.

Do you convict, based on the merits of fact and law alone?

"Hell yes!"


So you are going to punish someone for showing more common sense than a roomful of politicians? :scrutiny:
 
Juries arent supposed to be a rubber stamp for the legislature and the judge. They are a check (remember those checks and balances?) upon the entire legal system, to allow communities to prevent tyranny by denying the state the ability to legally attack people in ways that would be unjust.

This is why juries have always been beyond punishment for their decisions and why the state is barred from seeking new charges against someone that has been acquitted by a jury. The jury is a check upon the legal power of the State to behave in ways that are perhaps legal but obviously unjust.

Silverstate talks of honor but he does not understand the proper role of a jury. There is honor in jury nullification because it is the proper role of the jury when faced with an unjust law. Juries represent a last chance to avert unjust results from bad laws or malicious police officers.

The sad thing is not that activists are calling for more jury nullification- the sad thing is that jury nullification is so rare that it has to be explained to the average person.
 
Every person has the right to defend their life against a mortal threat - even people out of jail after having served time for a violent felony. The fact is that they are human beings, too. They are not acting as felons all the time - sometimes they are sitting at home minding their own business (or planning the next heist, etc. :eek: ), at which time they have as much right to SD as anyone else.

As to felons being denied the RKBA - I've got mixed feelings. First of all - no, I'm not too keen on the idea of a Ted Bundy being let out by a ball-less probation board, and then being able to walk into Bubba's Gunz 'n' Suds and buy a gun. Of course, convicted felons have their own networks of people that can get them a gun ANYWAY, so what's the difference? Also, ALL convicted felons are not allowed to buy guns - including non-violent felons, and including people who are felons because a bunch of anti-gun pols decided that owning a few magazines that were "too big" is a felony in their jurisdiction. IOW, not all felonies are created equal.

There's also the idea that if a person was so dangerous to society that they shouldn't own a gun, then they shouldn't be out of prison - and the decision to sentence them to a limited time and/or to release them early is a decision that this person is no longer so dangerous to the rest of us. The flip side of the coin is that someone who has served their sentence, including probation, has paid their debt to society. So why can't such a person own a gun?

As such, I'd probably lean toward "not guilty" if I didn't think the person should be disqualified from owning a gun (if, that is, the jury was given enough information). Heck, I might vote not guilty just out of spite for the idea that the government should control who gets guns. Being a gun owner, I'd likely never get to serve on a jury in such a case (so much for jury nullification), but if I'm ever called all I'll do in the voir dire is to answer the questions asked - nothing more.
 
Good point Sam Adams. I think we need to get back to the original definition of a felony. I think a good test to determine if something is a felony is "Can you shoot them while they are doing it?"

Murder - Yes
Armed Robery - Yes
Burglary - Yes
Arson - Yes
Carjacking - Yes
Kidnaping - Yes
Pedophilia (When they nab a kid) - Yes
Assault - Yes

Dunk Driving - No (Unless they try and run down the officer, then it is Assault)
A few guys smuggling a pound of weed - No
Having "evil" normal capacity magazines - No
Making a gun full auto - No
SBR or SBS - No
Fraud - No
A dealer dealing crack on the street - No
Watching kiddie porn - No (Go after the person that MADE it in the first place.)

Yes there are some that some people would like to be felonies, but if we make special cases, we get what we have now where you get thrown in Federal prison when you have a few joints on you and get pulled over by the police. Or a doctor looses his lisense when he gives a pain patient the medicine they need and the FBI decides to screw with him.
 
To the original question...

Murder: not guilty, other issue is irrelevant. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, and to use any tool to facilitate survival. He certainly had fair warning that such a situation may occur, but one is/should not be required to vacate one's home for any reason.

Felon in possession: separate case, not guilty. Law has a principle whereby a law may be disobeyed if obeying it would cause greater harm than not obeying. In this case, he was forbidden weapons, but circumstances proved he would likely be dead if he obeyed that law.

As a juror, I contend that the Constitution trumps; the "felon in possession" law is constitutionally invalid: no other point in the Bill Of Rights is similarly lost to felons, neither should RKBA. Voting rights may be lost, but they are a construct for our governmental system, as contrasted with natural rights independent of governmental system. Sentence served should restore citizenship; if someone's still too dangerous, leave 'em in the cage. Some are released on certain agreements, but those are backed up by a return to the cage if the agreement is violated.

It's absurd to let him off for shooting someone in justified defense, but to convict him for having the tool he needed for shooting someone in justified defense.



To the landlord/bouncer case...

It's all about reasonable doubt. The jury is directed to give a guilty verdict ONLY if beyond a reasonable doubt. We can't prove the threat to kill the wife, but we can conclude, from circumstantial evidence, there is a reasonable chance that the landlord acted appropriately (albeit unusually).



To jury nullification...

Our government is a system of checks and balances. It starts with voters - and ends with voters. Voters put legislators, executives, and judges in power, and trust them to govern in a manner representing the voters' wishes. If, after all the legal wrangling proceeds, someone ends up accused of violating the law, the jury (made of voters) have the opportunity to evaluate whether the law has indeed been broken ... and whether the law has so twisted the voters' intent that it should be invalidated in the given case. "If you don't like the law, vote to change it" may be too long and too unlikely to address a current case; all too often people are convicted of crimes not because they are guilty as voters intended the law to apply, but because an unintentional conflux of mismatching laws and unfaithful representatives can be twisted to net a prosecutor a conviction for his personal benefit. Remember, laws are typically written by people who really don't understand the subject at hand. Don't let the force of law unavoidably crush the innocent when the intent of law deviates from the implementation thereof.

As for following the instructions of the court: that extends further than what the presiding judge says. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" - if I know the law, and I know it contradicts what the judge says, then I side with the law ... which happens to say I can say "not guilty" if I believe the law would be wrongfully applied in the given case. I cannot be both expected to obey the law wherever it applies, yet ignore the law when deciding (as a juror) whether it applies. Honoring my oath does not mean blind irrational immoral obedience to a superior whom I know is giving wrong directions.

And I can't believe I just read someone contend that, where CCW is illegal in churches, someone should be jailed for felony murder for having a gun which they used to stop a murderous rampage in a church. That is EXACTLY the kind of perverse outcome of law we need jury nullification for.

"I was just following orders" is reprehensible when those orders are plainly unjust.



More on felons & guns...

The "felons shouldn't have guns" line helps perpetuate the mythos that guns are unusually dangerous. Felons are not forbidden knives, clubs, etc. - but somehow guns are deemed a special case. This special treatment of guns spills over to us law-abiding folks, and helps justify the anti-gun crowd's push for prohibition. Allow the special case there, and you'll get it extended where you don't want it to be.



Upshot...

You can't sanely convict someone for having tools needed to protect his life, as demonstrated by their actual use. Any system that concludes otherwise DEFINITELY needs a safety valve (to wit: jury nullification).

"You can use it, but you can't have it" is just stupid. Especially when one's very survival is on the line.
 
silverstate said:
There is no ridiculous duty to retreat like the hypothetical stated a few posts before. Let's stick to this hypothetical involving the ex-felon (violent offender) with a gun.

I'll have to look up the cite, but I believe that Massachusetts, a while back, prosecuted someone for shooting instead of jumping out a back window.
 
Murder = not guilty

Firearm possession = not guilty

I am a believer in jury nullification.

Many years ago I was on a jury and the defendants were running a bookie operation in a rented house. Dead bolted interior doors, buckets of water and banks of phones.

We found them guilty but I have always felt uncomfortable about my vote. I really don't care what people do with their money, if they want to piss it away gambling and dealing with the kind of folks that were on trial then more power to them.

I knew about jury nullification but didn't have the cojones to apply it and let the sleaze balls off. 2nd amendment rights are much clearer to me and I hope I would do the right thing if called upon.
 
Having been through the jury selection process I find the question to be rediculous. None of us would be allowed to sit on that jury without first proclaiming that we could find him guilty of the charge.
 
I have more questions: if you would vote guilty as to Serious Violent Felon in Possession of a Firearm (for purposes of this hypothetical, the underlying felony was Voluntary Manslaughter), are there any circumstances wherein you would vote to acquit? Any arguments that you might find persuasive?

Probably not. If you lie with dogs, you get fleas. As I said earlier, if there was ANY chance that the weapon could not be traced directly to him, and I was not aware of his voilent past, then I might vote not guilty.
Jury nullification is a slippery slope. It worked well for KKK murderers in the South, and I'm sure it's worked in numerous other circumstances as well. There are certainly times when it should be employed...but at what point does it totally undermine the legal system? Should blacks nullify all convictions of young black men who are being persecuted by the "white" system. Should dutifull Catholics nullify the convictions of abusive priests? Should ( Brand X religious) followers nullify US law to adhere to third world religious laws?
 
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