Oyez! Oyez! You are on a THR jury...SBS

[cropcirclewalker]

In the Inimmitable genre of Mr. El Tejon, I inquire.

A jury hypothetical:

Defendent's son uses the defendent's Remington 870 18 1/2" barrell as a cheater bar and bends it. It becomes unusable.

Defendent is the high bidder on a Remington 870 shotgun barrell on ebay. Ebay seller specifies that the barrell is more than 18" in length. A potential bidder questions the seller, since it looks to the potential bidder that once assembled into a receiver the barrell length will come up too short.

Seller answers the question by stating that he knows all about barrell length and this barrell is in fact, legal.

Defendent pays seller using paypal and waits. Time passes.

As the UPS truck backs out of defendent's driveway and as defendent stands there holding his new purchase, a black Suburban pull up and out get a couple of .gov agents. They ask if he has a Remington 870 receiver. Defendent responds in the affirmative. They ask if he has the stamp on the "permission slip" for him to constructively possess a short barrelled shotgun.

Defendent maintains that he bought a legal barrell which he holds in his hand at the time.

At trial, defendent's attourney holds a tape up to the barrell in evidence and the tape says 18 1/2 inches from muzzle to where the flange of the shell seats.

Prosecution provides evidence indicating that the length is measured by stuffing a dowel into the bore of the unloaded piece with action closed and it measures as 17 5/8".

There you sit in the box, one of twelve good men and true.

How do you vote?

edited to add.........
Sorry, Regardless of what the supremes have ruled, it is YOU in the box with one of 12 votes. Don't quote me no precedents. Just vote.

 

[Chris Rhines]

In accordance with my duty to judge both the law and facts of the case, I vote Not Guilty by reason of unconstitutional law.

I'm sure that everyone is surprised.

- Chris

 

[Kentak]

Huh? How is it possible that the dowel method wouldn't give the longest possible measurement of a barrel? Anything back of the breech face ain't barrel.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

You stuff the dowel into the bore of the unloaded piece and measure the dowel to the end of the muzzle.

This piece as per atf is too short.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Not guilty. It is a stupid law to start with. The power to tax in the NFA is used as a defacto prohibition. If the tax law is so burdensome that it raises little or no revenue by virtue of near or actual cesation of all commerce, it is not a tax at all but a prohibition, and thus is null and void.

 

[The Drew]

If anyone is to go to jail for this, it should be the seller, not only is this fraud (or entrapment in the case of a BATFE sting) but the buyer has no first hand knowledge that the barrel is defective (i.e. too short)

 

[Kentak]

Stop! Answer me this. How could the defendant's method of measurement be longer than the prosecution's? Something's not making sense.

 

[meef]

Well......

Being as this question is being posed here......

.....naturally, in my best keyboard kommando style I'd whip out my cleverly concealed "assault whatever" and generously serve lead to every agent of the prosecution while loudly chanting "From my cold dead hands" the entire time.

 

[Hoppy590]

BECAUSE THE DEFENDANT MEASSURES TO THE FLANGES ON THE BARREL. the law measures to the face of the bolt. the bolt may extend into the barrel

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Just the way it is.

When you hold up the tape to the outside of the barrell it looks like it's long enough. When you do it like atf, it ain't.

see

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=207457

 

[rbernie]

Guilty. Stupid or not, until it ceases to be the law or I'm given reason to believe that I can modify the law to suit my own belief structure, it *is* the law.

Stop! Answer me this. How could the defendant's method of measurement be longer than the prosecution's? Something's not making sense.

Because the defendant measured the barrel in a manner that is NOT the official approved and santioned way. In an 870 shotgun (as with every other long gun I know) the bolt protrudes into the barrel a ways. Measuring the outside of the barrel gives a deceptively long measurement and is legally inaccurate and indefensible. The BATF measures from the bolt face WHEN IN BATTERY to the muzzle.

The BATF measurement methodology is actually the technically correct way to do it.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Not Guilty.

I invoke the ancient right of the jury to judge both the facts of the case and the law. I furthermore fine the Feds humpteen bajillion dollars for annoying us all with this stupidity.

{bangs gavel}

Next case.

 

[atlctyslkr]

Not guilty. Defendant did not intend to assemble a short barrel. According to the narrative defendant never actually assembled anything before the barrel was confiscated.

If I wanted to get someone in trouble I sould sell short barrels to them and then track the package. I could then drop a tip to the ATF on the package arrival. Instant criminal.

 

[dev_null]

In a state that allows jury nullification, I vote Not Guilty. Since half of the panel are blissninnies and soccer moms, the jury deadlocks and a mistrial is declared.

In a state without jury nullification, I vote Guilty with extenuating circumstances and recommend suspended sentence.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

So the first 12 votes are in. I being the forman, didn't vote till there were the other 11 (only 11 plus me and if I vote, I only get to vote once, get it?)

Anyway, we got 11 not guilty and one guilty.

I guess we have a relative of an atf agent on the jury.

More deliberation......

He never even had a chance to measure it one way or the other. He was justifiably relying on the word of the seller. The question was brought up to the seller about the legality and the seller responded, once again affirming that it was a legal barrell.

Shall we vote again?

 

[Kentak]

Hoppy:

The poster said, "from muzzle to where the flange of the shell seats." Not the flange of the barrel. What barrel flange are you talking about? Also, in which guns does the bolt extend almost an inch into the barrel? How are you defining barrel?

K

 

[goste]

well.....It seems to me, that the SHELLFANGE, is where the rim of the shell headspaces in the barrel, and I'm not a 870 fan, but I don't think the bolt will travel 3/4 of an inch past that, to lock the action...... but , I dunno.

 

[Sindawe]

Not Guilty.

The law restricting SBS and the like to those who have paid the "tax" is abhorrent to the letter and spirit of the 2nd Amendment.

 

[TCB in TN]

Not guilty

The individual who sold the barrel would be responsible at that point. The buyer has not even had enough time to open the box to determine whether it is legal or not. Not guilty. Now if the ATF brought charges on the seller then we may have a different discussion.

 

[HRT]

Not guilty. There is no intent and the defendent at the time of the raid by the .gov boys the package had not unwrapped the package. Ergo the defendent was buying in good faith and had not found out at the time of the arrest that he had purchased an illegal barrel. Along the same line the E-mails are produced that shows that he had questioned the seller and had been assured that the barrell was over 18" long.

 

[Kentak]

I vote "not guilty," even though the barrel is too short, there was no intent to violate the law or assemble an illegal gun. He bought the barrel on good faith believing it was of legal length.

K

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Please don't get lost in the verbiage that I made about the flange of the shell. I am probably screwed up. If you look at the photo in the previous thread, you will see that the apparent length of the barrell is 18 1/2"

Look at the photo in the previous thread.

To the casual observer and not an atf technician or other leo smart guy about shotguns, it appears to be 18 1/2".

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Not Guilty

In a state that allows jury nullification, I vote Not Guilty. Since half of the panel are blissninnies and soccer moms, the jury deadlocks and a mistrial is declared.

In a state without jury nullification, I vote Guilty with extenuating circumstances and recommend suspended sentence.

There are no states that allow or don't allow jury nullification. Jury nullification exists under English common law and under our U.S. Constitution. The SCOTUS has confirmed that jury nullification exists not only as a right, but in fact as a duty. Unfortunately and inexplicably, having said that they have also said that judges don't have to TELL us that we have the right/duty to practice jury nullification.

Idiot law. No proof of intent. No harm, no foul. Not guilty as charged. Everyone go home.

 

[Fletchette]

Not guilty.

Any one of the following applies:

1) Jury has a right to determine validity of law (see run away slaves circa 1850's)

2) Even if the law is valid, there is no crime committed if there was no "criminal intent". Since the defendant specifically questioned the legality of this barrel, and the seller affirmed that it was, he purchaser clearly had no criminal intent.

3) ATF obviously had knowledge of this shipment, but failed to arrest the seller and prevent an illegal transfer. This is entrapment.

 

[rbernie]

I guess we have a relative of an atf agent on the jury.

Ridicule of opposiing positions is always a good way to make sure that you get a clean representation of the various perspectives.