Oyez! Oyez! You are on a THR jury

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Murder = not guilty, self defense.
Felon in possession = guilty by letter of the law. Do I agree with it? 1) some "crimes" should not be criminalized to the point of being a felony. 2) in your own home, I feel that there should be a "waiver" if not a legal right of ownership (call it a privilege for a felon) for self defense purposes. i.e., in your own house, .gov shouldn't ask and you shouldn't have to tell. Just don't let it be stolen...

Randall
 
Murder: Not guilty.

Possession: Not enough info.
1. When was his prior conviction?
2. What was his prior conviction?
3. At what point did he obtain the firearm used to defend himself?
 
It seems inconsistent to say the felon is not guilty for using a gun for self defense, but guilty for having the gun.

On the face of it, I would say not guilty on the gun posession case.
 
you can't infer that there is an immediate threat to the wife if the guy is not in the vicinity of said wife, however, if the wife has no immediate means of defending herself from intended assailant, then I could conclude that justifiable homicide was necessary.

As I noted, there was an awful lot of detail - covering everything that lead up to the encounter.

The landlord had the only weapon between husband and wife in their local residence. The bouncer had been threatening them for weeks by phone. The man and his wife were in town for a week of cleanup on the commercial building (used as a small poker establishment). She remained at the building while he went 5 miles to a Burger King to get take-out lunch. He parked in the back lot. The bouncer trailed him from where he'd had them under surveillance at the commercial building and jumped him when he came out of the Burger King and started to get into his truck.

And the bouncer had remarked to the landlord and a number of other people in the past that he always carried a .357 - which turned out to be in the trunk of his car at the time - probably because he spent a lot of time in California.
 
As to the original hypothetical,

The consensus, and correctly so, is that Defendant would be found not guilty of Murder and would be found guilty of ex-felon in possession of a firearm.
 
If the defendant was charged with the felon in posession, there would be no choice but to convict him since he would be violating the law, and the jury's job is not to vote by conscience but b fact. It would definetely be a hard choice, but it's clear. I think I would definetely sway not guilty if he used a defense of, "well i grabbed (insert person living with him/her, who has no record)'s gun to protect myself".

If the evdience showed he actyed in self defense theree would be no choice than to vote not guilty on the murder charge.
I disagree.

Read up on "jury nullification." Judges and prosecutors don't like it when citizens know their rights and duties, but the fact is the framers of the Constitution did NOT intend for juries to be bound by a judge's interpretation of the law. Even though the Supreme Court has ruled that judges don't have to tell us about it, they have NOT invalidated the fact that the bedrock of our legal/jury system is that the jury is the trier (triar?) of not only the facts, but also the law.

In plain English, what this means is that if a defendant CLEARLY broke a law but you think it's a bad or dumb law, you may (and should) vote to acquit. And you do not have to explain your vote to anyone. (In fact, since judges hate the notion of jury nullification so much, it's better for you and for the defendant if you never allow those two words to pass your lips.)
 
The consensus, and correctly so, is that Defendant would be found not guilty of Murder and would be found guilty of ex-felon in possession of a firearm.

An ex-felon can officially petition to have his voting and gun rights restored five years after finishing his sentence. If this guy didn't do that, then he is stuck with the possession charge.
 
EL T's case: not guilty all counts. His "crime" of FiP is outweighed by the fact his life was in danger AND he removed a scumbag from the streets. I won't throw him a party but I'll let him electric slide on the FiP charge.

Brian Green's situation: If there is ANY evidence at all that the bouncer dude had made threats coupled with the assault on the landlord means I would give the landlord a pass on this one. The bouncer had already proven he would use violence so you cannot consider his threat to kill the landlord's wife as a bluff. It must be treated as real. I know it is close but for me the tie goes to the productive non-agressor rather than the violent scumbag who uses his size to hurt and threaten others.
 
Not guilty in either case, of anything...


...and I'm with Hawken50 when it comes to jury nullification.
 
An ex-felon can officially petition to have his voting and gun rights restored five years after finishing his sentence. If this guy didn't do that, then he is stuck with the possession charge.

While the Federal Gun-Control Act does include a provision whereby non-violent felons can regain their gun rights once they've served their sentence, all applications for restoration of gun rights must be processed by the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives). This is a problem because Congress has refused to provide a single penny of funding for BATFE to process these applications since the early 1990s. Thus, if you get convicted of one of the many victimless procedural crimes that are now felonies and you subsequently apply to get your gun rights reinstated, the BATF will simply return your application to you with a letter saying: "Sorry, but we cannot process your request at this time.". What's worse, even though the law says that you can appeal to the courts if the BATFE denies your application for the restoration of your rights, the courts have ruled that failure to process the application is not a refusal. Therefore, you HAVE NO LEGAL RECOURSE.

So I say, not guilty on all counts.
 
Murder: Guilty.

I would not believe a convicted violent felon who was in illegal possession of a firearm.

If he needed to defend himself he could use his fists. If his fists aren't faster than a flying bullet, T.S.

Felons should not be allowed to possess firearms, least of all violent felons.
 
Does the defendent live with another adult (Spouse/SO) who 'could' have owned the firearm that he used to defend them?
That's a tough one. He is obviously broke the law, and regardless of how a juror feels about the morality of the law, it's his job to uphold it, not to circumvent it.

Edited to add- Not guilty of murder.
 
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Since this is most likely the only time in my life I will be seated on a jury......

If the act of self defense is legal in and of itself...the tool the defendant used to defend himself is immaterial. I don't see how it makes any difference if he killed the other man with a knife, club, scalding water, boiling oil....or a firearm as long as the itself was legal.

Jeff
 
El Tejon said:
...how is your decision influenced, if at all, by the fact that the defendant has a conviction for a crime of violence... ...and the defendant is a convicted felon who could not legally possess a firearm?
If the evidence is as cut and dry as you state (i.e., defendant was attacked in his own home, threatened with death prior to incident... et cetera), the prior conviction of violence is not very influential.

I will add, however, that had the proclaimed self-defense shooting happened elsewhere -- say in a public parking lot -- prior convictions for a crime of violence would be taken into consideration. Setting and circumstances play the larger roll in my opinion.

El Tejon said:
Do you believe that, since the Defendant is a felon, that he waives his right to self-defense? Waives just his right to self-defense with a firearm? No such waiver?
No such waiver. I'm of the opinion that once time is served and parole is complete, all rights should be restored. Firearms are easily accessible. It is naive to believe that a flimsy law will keep a dangerous person from committing a violent act. It does disallow a simple purchase at the local gun shop. But a determined person can circumvent this obstacle with ease.

El Tejon said:
Do you believe that Necessity would allow the Defendant to arm himself against the violent threats of the decedant [sic]? I.e., that it is a worse harm to allow oneself to be murdered than to break statutory prohibition against felons possessing firearms?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Hell yes.

Possession while prohibited: Nullify.



Disclaimer: I've not had the opportunity to serve on a jury. I do not know how my opinions above might be changed by actual proceedings, testimony, evidence...et cetera. It is very easy to spit out opinions while I drink coffee and sit in my comfy chair.
 
the tool the defendant used to defend himself is immaterial.

Forced to disagree.

If a felon is in possession of a firearm, they are -- in fact -- committing another felony.

Any death occurring during the commission of a felony is MURDER.

Pretty simple: the loser (twice felon) fries. :)
 
Ezekiel, due to your above post, I'm interested in how you would specifically respond to this portion of El Tejon's post (bolding mine):

El Tejon said:
Do you believe that Necessity would allow the Defendant to arm himself against the violent threats of the decedant? I.e., that it is a worse harm to allow oneself to be murdered than to break statutory prohibition against felons possessing firearms?
 
Just because something is the law, doesn't make it right.

Remember, owning blacks as slaves, blacks owning guns, killing indians, and harassing/killing jews were once legal and is still legal in some places. Just because the law says something doesn't mean it is right. The Holocaust was perfectly legal under German law at the time. Oops, looks like Himmler and other SS officers get to go free.

If all you went by was the letter of the law, juries would not be needed. Juries function as a check on government power. Just as each of the 3 branches of the federal government (are supposed to) check the power of the other two branches.
 
Not Guilty.

Firearms charge--Not Applicable.

Here, we have the "Doctrine of Lesser Harm"; the defendant used a firearm to save his life. Thus, since he exercised the lawful right of self defense, he gets a bye on the firearms charge.
 
Crosshair said:
If all you went by was the letter of the law, juries would not be needed. Juries function as a check on government power.

Crosshair, thank you for introducing my friend the hammer to my other friend the nail.
 
Some pretty scarey responses.

Here's how our legal system is supposed to work. You elect representatives. They vote to pass, change, or eliminate laws. Before the case goes to the jury, both sides (the prosecution and the defense) present proposed jury instructions (essentially telling the jury what the law is). Each side argues why a particular instruction should be given or not given based on the law. The judge decides which jury instructions comport with the law and which ones do not. All of this argument and the judge's decision is recorded/reported. If the judge decides incorrectly, the case gets appealed and the decision is overturned by a higher court.

It is not the job of the jury to disregard laws even if they don't agree with them. If you don't like a law, there are other ways to eliminate them or have them changed. One way is to elect someone who will change the law, another way is to put initiatives on the ballot to change/eliminate laws, and finally you can support organizations, like the NRA, that will help to change laws.

But to disregard the law after you took an oath to obey the law as instucted by the court is contrary to our legal system. You give your word. If your word means nothing, you should not be on a jury.

The doctrine of self defense is well established. It says in a nutshell, that if you reasonably think your life or the life of another is imminently at risk, you can take human life. The jury would be instructed accordingly. Given the limited facts that we have (probably only the facts helpful to the defense if I am understanding the thread-starter's position), it appears that defense is applicable and would allow the Defendant to escape criminal liability for killing the intruder. And rightly so, if the facts are as represented.

Felons cannot have guns. Although the law usually applies to all kinds of felons, even felonies not involving violence, we know that this felon was convicted of a violent offense. And he knows he cannot have a gun. Yet he has one. And you want to walk him on that? How insane is that?

Just like child molesters cannot be near playgrounds and schools. They know that. And if they violate that provision of their release, you want to walk them too?

We are all adults. The criminal justice system has a VERY high burden of proof. For this guy to have been convicted of a violent offense, twelve (typicall) jurors decided, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he did it. And now the consequence is that he cannot have a gun. But he doesn't care much about obeying the law. He has proven that. And now he is breaking the law again. And you want to walk him?

I am all for having guns. But I am not a violent felon. And that's the difference. Keep guns away from violent offenders and preserve the right of law-abiding citizens to protect themselves with firearms from those violent felons. Not the other way around.
 
silverstate said:
It is not the job of the jury to disregard laws even if they don't agree with them. If you don't like a law, there are other ways to eliminate them or have them changed. One way is to elect someone who will change the law, another way is to put initiatives on the ballot to change/eliminate laws, and finally you can support organizations, like the NRA, that will help to change laws.

But to disregard the law after you took an oath to obey the law as instucted by the court is contrary to our legal system. You give your word. If your word means nothing, you should not be on a jury.
If the law states that 'duty to retreat' means to find the furthest corner of your home, lock the door, call the cops, then and only then, if the criminal breaks down your door you can defend yourself....BUT said criminal didn't even give you TIME to retreat, run down corridor etc. etc. etc and they prosecute anyway, are you going to convict because said homeowner didn't follow the letter of the law?

Jury nullification is there for the express purpose of ensuring that someone didn't get caught up in the wheels of someones agenda driven justice.
 
Murder charge: not guilty.

If charged with possession: not guilty. Having a tool should not be a crime. Only what is done with the tool can be right or wrong.
 
But to disregard the law after you took an oath to obey the law as instucted by the court is contrary to our legal system. You give your word. If your word means nothing, you should not be on a jury.

Well, it's pretty tricky, ain't it?

We have this right, jury nullification. But you can only be on a jury if you give your oath not to exercise that right.

Fooey on that. I'll sleep fine after violating an oath that tries to take my rights away from me.
 
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