+p+ .38 loads

[Puncha]

Has anyone here shot +p+ .38 special loads?

I tried out about 100 +P+ loaded 158gr LRNs today and I noticed that in single action shooting from a K-frame S&W model 10 (50 shots), accuracy was decent at 25 yards, 50% of the shots hit the 10, 9 , 8 and 7 rings.

However, in the double action mode (other 50 shots), things were iffy.......only got 4 shots where it counted and the rest either hit the 5 ring or lousier or missed the target completely.

Any advice for shooting stout loads double action from a medium frame revolver? Is it even possible to get tack driving accuracy at 25 yards? Any marksmanship advice would be appreciated.

 

[Checkman]

I have a couple hundred Winchester +P+ rounds. They're 110 grain semi-jacketed hollow points. I've found their accuracy to be acceptable at 25 yards and closer. I find that my 686 handles the rounds just fine and I don't use anything other marksmanship techqniques. Trigger control, grip, breathing,front sight etc. However I wouldn't reccommend firing the +P+ rounds in anything beside a .357 magnum. The round could be fired for awhile in a 38 but it will inflict damge.

 

[jacobtowne]

I find shooting my old M&Ps double action difficult because the grips are much too small for my hands.
Do you have good-sized grips on the M10?
JT

 

[Jim K]

The standard warning on +P+ .38 Special is that they be used only in revolvers chambered for the .357 Magnum. There are no published SAAMI standards for the +P+ as it was not intended for sale to the public and can only be bought through LE channels.

Its purpose was purely political. Police could carry ammo that had .357 performance without the political baggage that is associated with the term "Magnum" in the minds of some segments of the public. When some BG got what he well deserved, the police PR guy or gal could say with a straight face that the police were not using that awful .357 Magnum, just the old .38 that they always used.

Jim

 

[Checkman]

I've been told that the Winchester 110 grain .357 magnum has basically the same ballistics as the 110 grain +P+ 38.

My father was an Idaho State Trooper for 21 years (1973-1994) and carried a M28 and then the M65. Starting in the mid-seventies ISP began issuing the +P+ for the troopers to load in their magnums. For many years I couldn't understand why they were issued 38 rounds ,albeit very hot rounds, to use in a .357 magnum. It's literally been in the past year that I've learned there was controversy during the seventies( in parts of the U.S.) over cops carrying .357 magnums. Ridiculous.

During much of his time as a trooper the administration discouraged the officers from carrying a BUG. But they didn't outright forbid it. Nevertheless any officer who wanted to carry a BUG had to qualify using duty ammo. So my father had to use this +P+ ammo in his S&W Model 36. He qualified, but bent his ejector rod in the process. He had the state pay for the repairs and from then on he was allowed to use 38 special ammo. This was in the day before J Frame magnums.

In the late seventies ISP got a new commander and the attitudes changed for the better towards BUG's. The +P+ is powerful stuff.

 

[thatguy]

The mystique of the .38 Special +P continues...

Jim Keenan- Only in .357 Magnum revolvers? Then why is it loaded in .38 Special cases? Maybe I'm nuts but I would think that ammo marked ".38 Special" should be safe for use in any good quality gun chambered in .38 Special.

Checkman- Factory +P 125 JHP clocks 945 FPS. A factory 125 in .357 Magnum runs more like 1,300 FPS. they most certainly are not the same.

The factory +Ps are barely hotter than standard ammo and much less than the performance ammo that was loaded back in the 1960s and 1970s. In a good quality steel framed revolver I would think 5,000 +Ps should break the gun in nicely.

To me the factory +P is at best a moderate load. My .38 Special carry load is a 125 JHP at 1150 FPS. So far no problems with any of my K or J frame S&Ws.

 

[Dienekes]

Back around 1982 or so my agency went to the W-W Q4070 +P+ 110 JHP. Prior to that the standard loads were either the .357 158 gr. SP or the .38 Spl. l58 gr RNL. However in that bygone age there was a lot of discretion so I carried a 200 gr H&G SWC handload in a Colt Commander LW...)

A few years ago I chronographed some of those loads in a 4" revolver and got 1070 fps average. Also chronographed its replacement load, the 110 gr .357 (Federals) and got 1369 fps. In the end we went to the good old 125 gr JHP and finally had a real stopper.

For a while I carried and used them in a M37 Smith airweight. The gun stood it but after about 150 rounds or so it developed serious timing "issues". A trip back to the factory put it back in shape but thereafter I practiced with wadcutters and adopted the +P 158 gr SWCHP for carry.

The round tended to shoot low with fixed sighted guns, and there were reports that the light hollow pointed bullets lacked penetration. Not much recoil but quite a bit of flash and blast. It shot nicely, though, and in warmer climes such as New Orleans probably would have enough moxie to do the job. Not a first choice round, but as noted, the whole idea was to avoid the stigma of using the feared tactical nuke .357 round.

...Just being a hollow point in those days was cruel and unusual. Guess in these days of beheadings that seems downright quaint...

 

[Cosmoline]

I like +P+ Hydroshock loads in my SP-101, but as others noted I'm not sure I'd want them in a lighter .38 Special. They're really designed for smaller .357's for a mix of political and practical reasons. I like them and the +P swchp's because I find I can rapid fire better out of the SP with them.

 

[Checkman]

thatguy The mystique of the .38 Special +P continues...

Jim Keenan- Only in .357 Magnum revolvers? Then why is it loaded in .38 Special cases? Maybe I'm nuts but I would think that ammo marked ".38 Special" should be safe for use in any good quality gun chambered in .38 Special.

Checkman- Factory +P 125 JHP clocks 945 FPS. A factory 125 in .357 Magnum runs more like 1,300 FPS. they most certainly are not the same.

The factory +Ps are barely hotter than standard ammo and much less than the performance ammo that was loaded back in the 1960s and 1970s. In a good quality steel framed revolver I would think 5,000 +Ps should break the gun in nicely.

To me the factory +P is at best a moderate load. My .38 Special carry load is a 125 JHP at 1150 FPS. So far no problems with any of my K or J frame S&Ws.

Jim and myself are talking about a 38 special load called the 38 +P+. This particular round is much hotter then the +P. Like Jim pointed out the +P+ was developed for Law Enforcement Use Only during the seventies because the use of the "horrible" .357 magnum round by the police had become a hot political button issue. The 38 +P+ gave officers a 38 with the performance specs of the 357 magnum, but ensured that they were still using the 38 special round. I haven't seen any chronograph results, but I would be willing to bet that the +P+ 38 matches the old 38/44 HV round's performance specs. I for one wouldn't want to shoot the +P+ round in my old M&P. I believe that the +P+ is sometimes called the Treasury Load as well.

 

[Cosmoline]

I always wondered why the boxes of +p+ have "LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY" on them. I knew it wasn't a legal restriction.

 

[Ken Rainey]

I chronographed some Winchester Law Enforcement .38 +P+ 110 grain from my S&W model 66 with a 4 inch barrel and got an average of 1110 fps with the highest registering 1156 fps. Lowest was 1025.

The Winchester White Box .357 magnum 110 grain from the same revolver got an average of 1160 fps with the highest hitting 1200 fps. Lowest was 1122.

The standard pressure Winchester .38 110 grain Silvertip averaged 905 fps with a high of 924 and a low of 882.

Looks like the .38 +P+ 110 grain is "almost" like an average standard pressure 115 grain 9mm and the .357 version is right on it velocity wise.

 

[Gordon]

I used the .38 +p+110 grain Win "Treasury" load in a shrouded ejector model Colt agent for prolly 300 shots with no harm. However I never liked it and went 'back' to 158grain LHPWC +p for occasional use. It clocked 1060 fps out of that snub. Funny the old Super vel unrated 110 grain load, which I still have a couple boxes of, clocked very close. I am about out of the couple thousand rounds of Gubbamint "treasury loads" I aquired, heck of a varmint round in a 6" K-38 though!1200+fps!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Winchester 147gr JHP 38 +P+:

900ish out of my 2 1/4" sp101.

950ish out of my 3" speed six

1100ish out of my 7.5" redhawk.

If you want, I'll get EXACT chrono numbers when I get home.

As for you accuracy question: Practice. Heavy recoil in a small gun takes LOTS of it.

 

[thatguy]

My bad. I missed the second + and I guess this a different animule. I'll try to read more carefully next time before shooting my mouth off. (That's a pun.)

Looking at Ken Rainey's results in chronographing the +P+ they look pretty close to as far as the factory is likely to go. A 110 JHP at 1160 doesn't exactly set the world on fire, but it's better than the +P.

I have loaded 110s to a measured 1405 FPS from a 4" S&W. This load was a bit too much and I wouldn't do it again. Maybe 1250 give or take would be a safe max for this combo.

My persoanl carry load is a 125 at 1150. Perhaps the extra 15 grains of bullet isn't all that much but I just prefer this weight. Also, the 110s shoot way low with fixed sights.

 

[TimboKhan]

I read through this thread sort of quickly, so maybe someone answered this already but this qoute brings up a couple of questions.

I've been told that the Winchester 110 grain .357 magnum has basically the same ballistics as the 110 grain +P+ 38.

First off, is this true? Secondly, if it is true, then what would be the advantage of shooting +P+ .38's over a .357, at least in .357 revos? Third, if this is true, what was the thinking behind the development of the round? Was it basically just to give .357 performance in .38 special only revos?

Just Curious

 

[ChristopherG]

Read more slowly.

 

[Puncha]

2 follow up queries.....

a) would it help accuracy if I fired the +p+ rounds through a 6" barrelled revolver instead of a 4" barrelled one?

b) Are Fiocchi's 158gr .38 Special rounds loaded to +p+ levels?

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_centerfire.php

 

[ChristopherG]

a) would it help accuracy if I fired the +p+ rounds through a 6" barrelled revolver instead of a 4" barrelled one?

Not to any greater extent than you would gain an accuracy advantage with any other round; i.e., the only difference in accuracy is the difference of how well YOU can shoot, based on the longer sight radius of a 6" vs. a 4" gun. A 6" gun is a little easier to shoot with high precision.

b) Are Fiocchi's 158gr .38 Special rounds loaded to +p+ levels?

Doubtful. Fiocchi's loads tend to the hot side of things, but the velocity data you're seeing on their website is for a longer than standard barrel. I don't see this information on the precise page you linked, but I think it's an 8" barrel or so; hence unusually high velocities.

 

[BluesBear]

They often have it on the shelf at one of the local large mega-sportings goods stores. Anyone can walk in and buy it.

Personally I like the 147gr stuff much better than the 110gr.

Turns a little J-frame into a BIG-DOG!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Blues Bear, that winchester stuff is exactly what I chrono'd.

 

[MR.G]

I have some Corbon 115 gr +P+ .38 special JHP. Save shot some in a S&W model 60 .38 special. Recoil feels like a .357. Accuracy was about the same as with standard pressure. The small gun took them pretty well.