+ p designation

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moooose102

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i was looking at buying brass for my 45acp a few minutes ago. i noticed that they have normal brass and + p brass. is there a difference in the brass itself (are the walls thicker, or made from a stronger alloy), or just the headstamp so the + p ammunition does not get mixed with standard loads. thanx, d.s.
 
I have old data from Hodgdon for .45+P that Ive loaded on a few occasions. I havent noticed a difference between the casings (mixed +P and non+P to see if one would split). You may have to get ye olde calipers out and go for it! :D

I know in .38, there is no difference between the two pressures with respect to the casing and webbing thickness. They just stamp it so that one knows that the round is a little hotter (or so Ive seen?).
 
The 45 acp +p brass is thicker in the web (the part of the case that unsupported in a 1911 chamber)...but its not "absolutely" necessary...
Unless you plan on reloading it over and over to +P pressure.

I always buy the plain old Remington 45 acp brass (no +P)...I load it to full power (a mild +P hunting load) 1 time...after that its range brass.

Hope that helps.
 
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE...+P brass is marked at the factory so you and I know that they loaded it a bit hotter. So we don't blow up our older firearms that were not made for +P. Other then that there is no difference between regular and +P brass...The chamber contains the pressure. Not the brass...
 
From this link....about 1/2 way down the page... http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm ...it has a pic of sectioned brass...you need a mic to tell the difference, but the difference IS there.
From left to right - .45 ACP, .45 ACP +P, .45 Super®. The difference is actually quite significant in the web area, as marked by the yellow vertical line. The Winchester measured .175", the Starline +P .182" and the Super .198". .023" over standard is a lot of brass and makes it easy to see what the Super brass is critical to proper function and safety. This extended area means the part of the Super case that hangs unsupported over the barrel's feed ramp is solid brass, where the standard case would have a portion of the cartridges powder cavity protruding into an unsupported barrel area.
Click to expand...
 
Actually, in the 1911 with a standard non-ramp barrel, the brass does contain the pressure.

The area over the feed ramp cut in the chamber is not supported by steel.
Only the brass case web is holding the pressure.

rcmodel
 
Loaded more times?
I wouldn't say that.

If I were to feel a need for +P .45 ACP, which I don't, I would get new Starline +P brass and use nothing but that.

If I was loading hot enough to get guppy-belly cases, I would back off!!!

I would reserve new +P cases for only one or two serious +P loadings, and then use it for standard pressure loads until the necks split.

But that's just me.

rcmodel
 
Thats what I meant rcmodel...I load the regular old Remington brass 1 time...7 grains of Power Pistol (830 fps from my 4.25 inch 1911) is a light +P load...the brass does swell "very slightly"...after that I use the brass to load "range fodder".

I have never used the +p brass ...but it should be good for 3 or 4 loadings at least.

I would use the +P brass if I was going to load anything hotter than my current load....but I don't see the need...I only load hot enough to get 5 inch performance from my shorter barrel.
 
I hate to say, but my handloads (following Hodgdon's old data for +P) guppy gutted every case fired. Not to the point of near failure (resized one and it looked fine) but not something I would trust for another even target velo loading.
 
ok, you have me interested, where do i measure to check for this "guppy belly" syndrome you are talking about. my eyes are probably not good enough anymore to see it without help, so for me, its just easier to measure. 2 days ago, i loaded up some fairly hot rounds (11.3 grains of accurate #7 w/230 xtp's). i didnt notice anything, and unfortunately, i have already resized the cases and loaded them again. but i would like to know just where to keep an eye on for future use.
 
Take the barrel out of your 1911 and drop a loaded round in the chamber.

What you see at the feed ramp cut is the un-supported area of the brass.
If it is swelling there, you have "guppy-belly" and are pushing the envelope in a 1911.

Keep pushing it, and the next sound you hear will be a blown case, and wood grip splinters in your shooting hand.

NOT a 1911, but the principal is the same:
380case2.jpg

Note thin web area of case:
380Case1.jpg

rcmodel
 
Per my cross sections and measurements:

Starline +P 45acp brass has way thicker walls than normal 45acp or 45Super brass.

+P 9mm brass is the same as +P+ and regular 9mm brass.


note: I seem to be in conflict with Joe D'Alessandro of realguns 1999 cross sectioning and measuring Starline +P and 45 Super brass. He is a sharp and careful guy, and all I can think is that we got different batches of brass.
 
I have never taken the time to cut a case (.45 ACP) in half, but I have taken the time to weigh many cases and have seen no difference in weight. All .45 ACP cases and 9mm X 19 standard and +P run about +/- a few grains of each other. Some standard cases were heavier and some +P were lighter...That would pretty much make them the same. As for "guppy bellied" cases in .45 ACP 1911 (in my case Colt series 80). I have never seen one and I have loaded above manual specs on ocassion...Colt barrel is a non- ramped barrel and gives near 100% support. Mind you...I said "near 100%"...

Ain't this fun???:D
 
You cant go by weight...some companies use different alloys which don't weigh the same...sometimes, as in the article I posted, the lighter case is the stronger one.

Yep...its fun...:)
 
Gentlemen: Do not go by measurements taken from off the photo at the "Realguns" citation posted by Ridgerunner. I section things for a living and I can tell you just looking at the photo that those are not identical sections, so none of the measurements are valid if taken off the photograph. Sectioning effects have to be considered if not sliced in precisely the same location. These clearly are not!
 
I can tell you just looking at the photo that those are not identical sections,
Click to expand...
I noticed that too.
To be meaningful at all, a case section has to be very close to, if not exactly, 1/2 way through the case.

The three in the ridgerunner photo are not 1/2 sections, and you are looking at an angled view of the actual thickness.

And I agree, all three are cut in different places, so are useless for comparison purposes.
 
Ridgerunner: I have been using for a while a extrapolation of Unique (about .5 gr over max). Not bad, but switched to HP38 for the actual +P loads (according to exact details given by Hodgdon). It bellys them too, but not as bad as Unique :D.

Realistically, I try alot of stupid stuff from time to time, its a wonder I still have any firearms or fingers for that matter. But, if I blow something up, I will not come whining to internet boards about the gun, just my hubris+lack of brains.:D
 
rcmodel is correct, also check the Starline website, at one time it told you that in 45acp brass, the +p was different than standard 45 brass. Not so in 38 or 9mm if i remember correctly.
 
I figured it was Unique...I edited the post...

I originally had..." I bet you're using Unique " in it...

To the others.....maybe those pics aren't the best in the world.

But I have a friend who loads 45 Super, 45-08, and some really heavy 45 acp pin loads.

He uses cut down 308 Win brass for the 45-08, 45 Super brass for the Super, and +P brass for the 45 acp because he uses 255 grain bullets and hefty charges of Unique to propel them....standard brass wont take it without major deformation...

There is a difference...and you can believe me or not...I don't really care...its your fingers.
 
lol, I love it Ridge! BTW, a lead 250-260 gr RN with 5.3 gr. of Unique behind it in .45 ACP is quite the handshake. It tears it up (about 775 fps) and penetrates deep! Its one of 4 SHTF loads for .45 ive been stockpiling.

Fingers? Meh, gotten me nothing but trouble. Give me replacement eyes! Pop the old ones out, snip the wires, get your new eye out, connect red to red, blue to blue, give it a minute for the software to recognize it and youre on your way! :D
 
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