+P Rounds in a Colt .38 special Police issue
- Thread starter chucklpetty
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Certaindeaf
member
^Fuff
I hear you, Sir. I reload and take my own responsibility/do my own research. knock on wood and all like that
I hear you, Sir. I reload and take my own responsibility/do my own research. knock on wood and all like that
Guillermo
member
Colt Police Positive Special
Certaindeaf
member
^
That was a good year.
That was a good year.
roaddog28
Member
I agree with that statement. Then answer this question for me. If a S&W K-38 will handle the above round then why can't the Colt Police Positive made in the 1970s handle the same round? The Colt is all steel, same size frame and the heat treatment should be better than old K-38. Right?
And todays so called 158 gr +P rounds are running in the neighborhood of 850 to 900 FPS.
I don't reload but I use the Remington LSWCHP 158gr +P round in my 1954 S&W M&P pre-10. This round runs at about 850 FPS. This is my self defense round and I do put about four boxes a year through this revolver.
I have to agree with Saxon Pig. +P 38 special ammo is marketing hype from ammo makers.
Regards,
Howard
Guillermo
member
try again
Colt Police Positive Special 1955
Colt Police Positive Special 1955
jimbo555
Member
I shoot remington 158lhp+p's in my 1939 police positive special often. They shoot to point of aim and recoil is mild. My colt still locks up tighter than anything new at the gun store!
Guillermo
member
yep
A- the lockwork works different than anything at the gun store
B- it is better than any new revolver at the gun store
I don't claim to be an expert at ballistics. I know what I see, and what I read from trusted sources. My experience tells me current +P is weak and anemic. When I shoot it, the cases do not expand and seal the chambers. This results in blow-by making the cases dirty with powder residue. All the reloading books say this is a sign of low pressure. It's low pressure... and this is the so-called +P ammo doing it. When I tip the barrel the cases simply fall from the cylinder. Again, the pressure is so low the cases are not expanding.
As for the velocity claims on the S&W ammo from years past, they were likely from pressure barrels and real guns don't duplicate the numbers. But are you suggesting that the claimed 1380 is really 925? You think they would lie that much? Chronographs were around, they would get called out on such a lie but pronto.
I don't think it takes an engineering degree to recognize that a 125@925 load is simply not powerful. It exhibits low pressure characteristic when fired. I don't care what the lawyers at S&W say, any S&W revolver ever made in 38 Special will handle current +P (which is actually less powerful than standard loads used to be) without excessive wear or damage.
Anyone who feels otherwise is free to do as he pleases. I spent several years researching the matter and twice as long arguing about it. I have made up my mind based on observation and research. Do what you all want. I'm done.
As for the velocity claims on the S&W ammo from years past, they were likely from pressure barrels and real guns don't duplicate the numbers. But are you suggesting that the claimed 1380 is really 925? You think they would lie that much? Chronographs were around, they would get called out on such a lie but pronto.
I don't think it takes an engineering degree to recognize that a 125@925 load is simply not powerful. It exhibits low pressure characteristic when fired. I don't care what the lawyers at S&W say, any S&W revolver ever made in 38 Special will handle current +P (which is actually less powerful than standard loads used to be) without excessive wear or damage.
Anyone who feels otherwise is free to do as he pleases. I spent several years researching the matter and twice as long arguing about it. I have made up my mind based on observation and research. Do what you all want. I'm done.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Oh heck SaxonPig!
Don't give up yet!!
Somebody else will ask the same question within 48 hours I betcha!!
rc
Don't give up yet!!
Somebody else will ask the same question within 48 hours I betcha!!
rc
Guillermo
member
Neither of these are debatable
and documenting your results
I don't care what the lawyers at S&W say, any S&W revolver ever made in 38 Special will handle current +P (which is actually less powerful than standard loads used to be) without excessive wear or damage.
I presume this includes those Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolvers made between 1899 and 1919 that had low-carbon steel cylinders that weren't heat treated; as well as early alloy (aluminum) framed models. What might happen if someone who had one of these took up steady shooting with Buffalo Bore ammunition? (They by the way, wouldn't recommend it.)
I presume this includes those Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolvers made between 1899 and 1919 that had low-carbon steel cylinders that weren't heat treated; as well as early alloy (aluminum) framed models. What might happen if someone who had one of these took up steady shooting with Buffalo Bore ammunition? (They by the way, wouldn't recommend it.)
MMCSRET
Member
The same questions asked over and over just makes it all funner and funner as it all just gits gooder and gooder!!!!!!
Wow.
My two cents.
I carry Remington 158 grain +P Lead Hollow Points in my S&W Model 49 Bodyguard. The so-called "FBI Load".
When I am at the range target shooting my .38 revolvers I use the classic 158 grain lead round nose 38 Special load. It's accurate, easy on the revolvers (several of my revolvers are now over 50 years old) and fun to shoot. I also have stockpiled that load over the years so I have a lot of it. Why does an enjoyable range session have to consist of so much fire and fury?
I have a few hundred of the old Winchester 38 Special +P+ 110 grain semi-jacketed hollow point rounds as well. The so-called "Treasury Load". I also have a few boxes of the old Federal 147 grain +P+ jacketed hollow points. When I shoot those rounds (which isn't very often) I restrict them to my .357 magnums and my S&W 5" Heavy Duty. why? Well why not be conservative. Yes the 38 Special revolvers could probably handle the loads, but what the heck is the point?
My two primary "real-world" handguns are a Glock 19 and a Glock 26. I load those with the Federal HST +P 124 grain jacketed hollow point. I'm not worried about pressure, overpressure, underpressure or anything else with the Glocks. Why do people have to make everything so complicated?
My two cents.
I carry Remington 158 grain +P Lead Hollow Points in my S&W Model 49 Bodyguard. The so-called "FBI Load".
When I am at the range target shooting my .38 revolvers I use the classic 158 grain lead round nose 38 Special load. It's accurate, easy on the revolvers (several of my revolvers are now over 50 years old) and fun to shoot. I also have stockpiled that load over the years so I have a lot of it. Why does an enjoyable range session have to consist of so much fire and fury?
I have a few hundred of the old Winchester 38 Special +P+ 110 grain semi-jacketed hollow point rounds as well. The so-called "Treasury Load". I also have a few boxes of the old Federal 147 grain +P+ jacketed hollow points. When I shoot those rounds (which isn't very often) I restrict them to my .357 magnums and my S&W 5" Heavy Duty. why? Well why not be conservative. Yes the 38 Special revolvers could probably handle the loads, but what the heck is the point?
My two primary "real-world" handguns are a Glock 19 and a Glock 26. I load those with the Federal HST +P 124 grain jacketed hollow point. I'm not worried about pressure, overpressure, underpressure or anything else with the Glocks. Why do people have to make everything so complicated?
roaddog28
Member
Well Old Fuff I would have to disagree with your statement. S&W began heat treating their cylinders in the 1920s. When the first M&P hand ejector came out in 1899 with the 38 special the round they reported using was a 158 gr running at 870 fps. Now this was black powder but it appears evident that the early M&P 38 specials could handle want is called todays "+P" round. I would imagine the early colts would handle the round too. This is where I agree with Saxon Pig. The 38 special is a low power round. In most cases the current +P rounds are only running in the 18,000 psi range or lower. As long as the revolver is in good shape I would say any Colt or S&W from the 1940s can handle todays +P round. Maybe exception would be Buffalo Bores +P round.
The ammo companies are making money selling consumers so called "high pressure ammo called +P". This is nonsense because the +P is less than 20% higher in most cases compared to standard pressure rounds.
The choice comes down to the person. I chose to shoot rounds running at 850 to 900 fps with weights in the 125 to 158. I like the 158 gr the best. My revolver is a very used S&W M&P 38 special made in 1954. I don't worry about excessive wear or bulged cylinders. I have never experienced it with this revolver. I am 62 years old and been shooting the 38 special in non model number M&Ps since 1968. If memory serves me correct the old LRN 158 gr I used was running at 800 fps or above.
The link I provided below is a good history of the early M&P hand ejector. I see no reason a Colt Police Positive special could not perform as well as the M&P.
Regards,
Howard
http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_SW-MP.htm
The link below I feel does a good job of explaining the history of the handejector.
The ammo companies are making money selling consumers so called "high pressure ammo called +P". This is nonsense because the +P is less than 20% higher in most cases compared to standard pressure rounds.
The choice comes down to the person. I chose to shoot rounds running at 850 to 900 fps with weights in the 125 to 158. I like the 158 gr the best. My revolver is a very used S&W M&P 38 special made in 1954. I don't worry about excessive wear or bulged cylinders. I have never experienced it with this revolver. I am 62 years old and been shooting the 38 special in non model number M&Ps since 1968. If memory serves me correct the old LRN 158 gr I used was running at 800 fps or above.
The link I provided below is a good history of the early M&P hand ejector. I see no reason a Colt Police Positive special could not perform as well as the M&P.
Regards,
Howard
http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_SW-MP.htm
The link below I feel does a good job of explaining the history of the handejector.
Well you can disagree with me if you want to...
But you will also have to disagree with two very respected Smith & Wesson researchers - Robert J. Neal and Roy G Jinks, who before retiring was Smith & Wesson's company historian.
In their book, Smith & Wesson, 1857-1945 they say:
Their source for this came from a notebook kept at the factory by an engineer in which he logged various changes and other data of interest between 1919 and about 1951. He noted the following:
Shortly after the same was done with .38 Special cylinders at the above noted serial number.
Jim Supica and Richard Nahas (Also well recognized authorities) in their book Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson say concerning the .38 Military & Police; 1905 Hand Ejector:
I could go on, there is more...
As you correctly note, "Now this was with black powder" and also out of a 6 1/2" barrel. Black powder is a much slower burning propellent then smokeless and while the pressure may (or may not) be higher, spreads it over a much flatter curve, Thus a smokeless charge, that is burning faster, causes higher stress in the chamber. Now as you noted, some Plus-P ammunition is on the wimpy side, and "plus only in name" However the problem is, not all Plus-P ammunition meets this description! Consider the previously mentioned Buffalo Bore products, even you say.
Darn right!, which is the reason I'm careful in what I say.
Ya' can't say on one hand, "Any Smith and Wesson chambered in .38 Special," and then, "Maybe exception would be Buffalo Bores +P round."
But you will also have to disagree with two very respected Smith & Wesson researchers - Robert J. Neal and Roy G Jinks, who before retiring was Smith & Wesson's company historian.
In their book, Smith & Wesson, 1857-1945 they say:
Their source for this came from a notebook kept at the factory by an engineer in which he logged various changes and other data of interest between 1919 and about 1951. He noted the following:
Shortly after the same was done with .38 Special cylinders at the above noted serial number.
Jim Supica and Richard Nahas (Also well recognized authorities) in their book Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson say concerning the .38 Military & Police; 1905 Hand Ejector:
I could go on, there is more...
As you correctly note, "Now this was with black powder" and also out of a 6 1/2" barrel. Black powder is a much slower burning propellent then smokeless and while the pressure may (or may not) be higher, spreads it over a much flatter curve, Thus a smokeless charge, that is burning faster, causes higher stress in the chamber. Now as you noted, some Plus-P ammunition is on the wimpy side, and "plus only in name" However the problem is, not all Plus-P ammunition meets this description! Consider the previously mentioned Buffalo Bore products, even you say.
Darn right!, which is the reason I'm careful in what I say.
Ya' can't say on one hand, "Any Smith and Wesson chambered in .38 Special," and then, "Maybe exception would be Buffalo Bores +P round."
Guillermo
member
*note...to anyone reading, please know that I have the utmost respect for Old Fuff and in no way mean any disrespect*
Fuffster
You know perfectly well that Saxon was talking about heat treated revolvers. Not black powder, not top-break, not pre-hardened cylinders.
On this issue you dance like Bill "Bojangles" Robinson.
Your position SEEMS to be that the regular ammunition sold in the 40's, 50's and 60's was too hot for the revolvers of that period. PLEASE answer this assertion.
Not only is their no evidence that the .38 spl revolvers of that period suffering from this, but you always refuse to answer specific questions concerning how much you think that a revolver from that period should be subjected to.
Saxon has loads of information on the subject and you have to admit that he is a smart guy with a ton of research on the subject. (I know you guys butt heads concerning Fitz conversions, but you can agree that he has worked hard on the .38 special round and its capability as well as the fact that he is a smart guy. And he has shot 10.000s of what you call "hot rounds" out of his guns.)
You know I will carry your range bag and shag your brass if you shoot a bottom-feeding brass-chucker but your vague statements on this subject are frustrating.
yes "850 FPS with a 158-grain lead bullet a K-38 Masterpiece will out live you"...but that is a cop out. Using just primers and it will outlive you too.
What do you think is the most powerful round that is reasonable to shoot out of that K-38?
Saxon calls 850 FPS with a 158-grain lead bullet a "gallery load". I agree.
Come on Fuffster...get specific!!!
Fuffster
You know perfectly well that Saxon was talking about heat treated revolvers. Not black powder, not top-break, not pre-hardened cylinders.
On this issue you dance like Bill "Bojangles" Robinson.
Your position SEEMS to be that the regular ammunition sold in the 40's, 50's and 60's was too hot for the revolvers of that period. PLEASE answer this assertion.
Not only is their no evidence that the .38 spl revolvers of that period suffering from this, but you always refuse to answer specific questions concerning how much you think that a revolver from that period should be subjected to.
Saxon has loads of information on the subject and you have to admit that he is a smart guy with a ton of research on the subject. (I know you guys butt heads concerning Fitz conversions, but you can agree that he has worked hard on the .38 special round and its capability as well as the fact that he is a smart guy. And he has shot 10.000s of what you call "hot rounds" out of his guns.)
You know I will carry your range bag and shag your brass if you shoot a bottom-feeding brass-chucker but your vague statements on this subject are frustrating.
yes "850 FPS with a 158-grain lead bullet a K-38 Masterpiece will out live you"...but that is a cop out. Using just primers and it will outlive you too.
What do you think is the most powerful round that is reasonable to shoot out of that K-38?
Saxon calls 850 FPS with a 158-grain lead bullet a "gallery load". I agree.
Come on Fuffster...get specific!!!
roaddog28
Member
I would have to agree. This round is not a hot load. Any steel S&W or Colt revolver in 38 special in good condition made from 1940 and up can handle this round. It is a "galley load". And I have a old revolver that has seen a lot of this round and it is doing fine.
Howard
Deaf Smith
Member
Just use Buffalo Bore .38s.
Their non +p gets a 158gr LSWHP at 850 fps FROM A 2 INCH SNUB! Their 'hot' load gets the same 158 at 1000 fps from a 2 inch snub (real good for those S&W 2 inch M10s and steel Colt DS guns.)
For my Colt Cobra 2 inch I'd use the non +P stuff at 850 fps.
Deaf
Their non +p gets a 158gr LSWHP at 850 fps FROM A 2 INCH SNUB! Their 'hot' load gets the same 158 at 1000 fps from a 2 inch snub (real good for those S&W 2 inch M10s and steel Colt DS guns.)
For my Colt Cobra 2 inch I'd use the non +P stuff at 850 fps.
Deaf
I am thinking of mainstream +P from Remington, Winchester, etc and not the specialty makers like Buffalo Bore. I don't know for sure where BBs come in at pressure, I know where the Rems and Wins do.
I would include any S&W revolver made in the smokeless powder age even those not tempered. Any S&W 38 revolver made for use with smokeless powder ammo was designed for 21,000PSI. At 18,000 +P is not going to stress a gun made for 21,000. Seems like simple logic to me.
I would include any S&W revolver made in the smokeless powder age even those not tempered. Any S&W 38 revolver made for use with smokeless powder ammo was designed for 21,000PSI. At 18,000 +P is not going to stress a gun made for 21,000. Seems like simple logic to me.
You may call it a gallery load, but those are the specifications the revolver was designed around and law enforcement officers carried and used for several generations. If you want to hot-rod it go ahead, but why do so in older revolvers when the model 19/66 is available in .357 Magnum? Then you can use some real barn-burners.
If you want, and hand load, you can duplicate the old .38-44 Heavy Duty load (158 grain bullet @ 1175 FPS out of a 5" barrel). Clearly this isn't a gallery load and it's Saxon Pig approved for use in any S&W .38 Special K-frame ever made. What more could you ask?
I'll give you a hint though. When the "gallery load" won't do I upgrade to .44 Special, and on very, very few occasions when I had doubts there was Mr. Browning's big .45 pistol, and in extreme cases there was the .44 Magnum. Any of the forementioned cartridges will run ANY .38 Special Plus-P into the ground.
Not really, I'm just not saying what you want to hear.
Guillermo
member
Fuffster,
While you are at the plate...take a swing at this.
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