+P Rounds in a Colt .38 special Police issue

[Radagast]

I'll chuck in my two cents.
I sprang the crane on a Model 60 (J Magnum frame) fitted with a custom 4 inch barrel and no locking lug. It took 5 rounds of Winchester 110 grain +P. Based on this experience I am of the opinion that use of PlusP or jacketed ammo should be avoided in any gun lacking a locking lug, including the first model Hand Ejector and any WWII surplus with cut down barrels.

In the 180 pages of the S&W ID thread there have been several guns from the period 1915 through to the 1920s that had replacement barrels, none from later times. This suggests that until the late 1920s barrel steel was probably not up to scratch.
All of the cases of bulged cylinders I've read of seem to be from the same time period.
Based on the above I don't recommend use of .38 Special +P or jacketed ammo in guns from that period.

I know we go round and round on this every six to eight weeks, but it does keep the new members informed by having it on the front page. So I recommend Old Fuff, RCModel, SaxonPig & Guillermo continue to butt their heads together at periodic intervals.

 

[Guillermo]

I know we go round and round on this every six to eight weeks, but it does keep the new members informed by having it on the front page.

giggling

I recommend Old Fuff, RCModel, SaxonPig & Guillermo continue to butt their heads together at periodic intervals.

Laughing out loud!!!

 

[JB357MAG]

Great thread, I have a question about this in another thread.

In a few weeks I will be getting an Interarms/Rossi Stainless
steel, all steel .38 spl 2" snubbie from 1979/1980 era.

Its not rated for +p but the round I want to use is the Remington
Golden Saber .38 spl +p Jhp 125 grain 975fps out of a 4" barrel.

Ive seen regular .38 spl's with higher fps data, and the above posted
data backs this up.

I would think this round would be ok in this gun.

Also gun is in great shape with only about 100 rounds threw it.

What do ya think?

Jimmy

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I'd shoot 'em out of a Rossi with even less worries. In the event it busted, the replacement won't be as much as a Colt.

 

[Old Fuff]

Its not rated for +p but the round I want to use is the Remington
Golden Saber .38 spl +p Jhp 125 grain 975fps out of a 4" barrel.

I suspect the gun will stand up - at least for awhile. But your wrist, hand and fingers may want to sit down with you and have a talk about all this.

 

[SaxonPig]

Oh yes, that world-shaking +P will just cripple your arm. The ERs are full of shooters who have shattered wrist bones from shooting that stuff. The checkering of the stocks is still visible on my palm from shooting it 3 years ago.

Puuulease....

 

[Guillermo]

Quote:
Your position SEEMS to be that the regular ammunition sold in the 40's, 50's and 60's was too hot for the revolvers of that period. PLEASE answer this assertion.
Quote:
Not only is their no evidence that the .38 spl revolvers of that period suffering from this, but you always refuse to answer specific questions concerning how much you think that a revolver from that period should be subjected to.
Fuffster,

While you are at the plate...take a swing at this.

Tapping foot, thinking of dancing analogies

 

[j1]

I called Smith and Wesson concerning the use of plus p ammo in my Chiefs special and got a short simple answer reccomending against the frequent use of it but the fact that it is fine if used occasionally. Their answer suits my needs admirably.

 

[Radagast]

This is 9mm vs .45 for old guys!

 

[Guillermo]

This is 9mm vs .45 for old guys!

watch it you young whippersnapper!!!

show some respect.

Did anyone see where I left my teeth?

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
For sure. I had me a glass of milk before bed last night. Gotta take care of them wristbones!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

This is 9mm vs .45 for old guys!

 

[SaxonPig]

j1- S&W also says no reloads.

 

[Guillermo]

Saxon

You have asserted that postwar S&W 38 special revolvers are made to handle 21,000PSI

Where did you glean that information.

(perhaps Old Fuff will be inspired to explain how all of these guns survived shooting the "regular pressure" ammo but will not survive the same ammo now that it is relabeled since
he has been asked THREE times)

 

[Deaf Smith]

I am thinking of mainstream +P from Remington, Winchester, etc and not the specialty makers like Buffalo Bore. I don't know for sure where BBs come in at pressure, I know where the Rems and Wins do.

I would include any S&W revolver made in the smokeless powder age even those not tempered. Any S&W 38 revolver made for use with smokeless powder ammo was designed for 21,000PSI. At 18,000 +P is not going to stress a gun made for 21,000. Seems like simple logic to me.

Buffalo Bore GUARANTEES it will work in any .38 Spl. revolver, aluminum or not, +P rated or not.

That's just for the 158gr load at 850 from a 2 inch bbl.

Deaf

 

[SaxonPig]

I said I didn't know the specs on BB ammo, not any sort of criticism.

Some specialty ammo companies sell loads that look heavy but are claimed to be non-+P. Not sure what standard they are using.

G- The original smokeless 38 Special standard was 21,000 PSI. The 1899 M&P was made for this ammo. Every 38 Special made since 1899 was built with the 21,000 load in mind. Then in the 1970s they started reducing the loads on advice of counsel.

There is nothing that I or anyone else can say to change people's minds when they are convinced. In 1899 the 38 Special was intended to be a 21,000 cartridge and the guns were made to shoot it so it seems obvious to me that an 18,000 load (+P) is a pipsqueak in comparison. But many refuse to believe that. Fine. Everybody is free to think and do as they please.

 

[Guillermo]

The 1899 M&P was made for this ammo

So the guns made prior to 1930 by S&W, which did not have hardened cylinders, were made to handle 21,000 PSI?

Where do I reference this?

 

[Old Fuff]

The original smokeless 38 Special standard was 21,000 PSI. The 1899 M&P was made for this ammo.

When the mechanical design was compleated, D.B. Wesson discussed the merits of this gun with his son Joseph. The revolver was originally designed to fire the .38 United States Service cartridge (.38 Long Colt) but the cartridge had developed a reputation for lack of power. D. B. Wesson suggested the cartridge case be lengthened to allow the powder charge to be increased from 18 grains of black powder to 21 1/2 grains. The bullet weight was changed from 150 grains to 158 grains, this new cartridge was called the .38 S&W Special, and factory literature showed the impoved cartridge had a penetration of eight and one-half pine boards, each seven-eights thick, a penetration two inches greater then that of the U.S. Service load.

History of Smith & Wesson; Revised Tenth Anniversary Edition, by Roy G. Jinks. pp 159-160

Question: What method did Smith & Wesson, as well as others, use to determine cartridge pressure during the last years of the 19th century?

 

[Guillermo]

Question: What method did Smith & Wesson, as well as others, use to determine cartridge pressure during the last years of the 19th century?

It doesn't matter.

Since the round could be duplicated in modern times, the pressure could be measured with modern equipment.

I am sure that Saxon will tell us where he gleaned this information.

He is always open with his sources.

(Still waiting for you, Old Fuff, to explain how a 1950 ammo was unsafe to use in 1950 guns and yet they had no problems with the unsafe ammo)

 

[Quoheleth]

I just hung up the phone with Colt Manufacturing, asking about use of +P in my 1968 manufacture (978,000 SN range) Detective Special.

Without missing a beat, the gentleman said "absolutely no." His rationale: prior to 1972 they did not pressure test any of the guns. I mentioned that today's +P load is considerably lighter than the old pre-'72 SAAMI load and wondered why it would be a problem. His answers were that yes, many customers do run +P ammo with seemingly no problem. However, should there be a problem with the gun, it will be very expensive to fix and will probably necessiate a trip back to them for a full rebuild job.

In the end he said, "It's your choice, but I will tell you not to do it."

As a personal note, "can" and "should," while sometimes in agreement with each other, often times are not. Can a DS handle +P? Probably. Should it be done? Not per Colt's recommendation.

Q

 

[Guillermo]

Not per Colt's recommendation

Colt, like Smith&Wesson, say that using the regular ammunition from 1965 should not be used in a gun that was manufactured in 1965.

And so many people act as though they are an authority

(shaking head)