Paging Dogtown Tom: what changed with the Biden rule on "ghost guns"?

1KPerDay

1KPerDay

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@dogtown tom I beg your indulgence, please, as you have a way of explaining the laws in a way everyone can understand. In August, a new Federal rule said that people selling "ghost gun" kits, kits I assume being the operative term, must include serial numbers and the kits must be sold/transferred in the same way as any other firearm now.

What, if anything has changed on a federal level as far as manufacturing your own gun? I believe the SCOTUS recently upheld the rule or reaffirmed that making your own firearms is "deeply rooted in the US's history and tradition" or something similar... so is it still legal to make a firearm for your own purposes and use, or does this new "ghost gun" rule somehow interfere with that? does the new rule apply only to "80% receivers" or specifically to "kits"?

Thanks for any insight.
 
Regarding giving or selling an unserialized/homemade firearm to another person, This source says:
"Federal law does not require a homemade gun to have an identifying marker (such as a serial number), as long as it remains in the possession of the original maker. However, if the gun is subsequently sold or otherwise transferred, it should be marked prior to its disposition. The ATF suggests that all homemade firearms be marked with a serial number as a safeguard in the event the firearm is lost or stolen, but this marking is required if the gun is otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

"Suggests," "should," and "safeguard" don't sound like "legally required to me." Is this still the case, or what? I looked at the ATF's FAQs and couldn't find anything to clarify this.
 
Here is an older thread on the topic that should help you out.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...wers-need-to-be-sold-at-the-gun-store.908728/

The biggest change really only effects FFL holders. Anytime a PMF (privately manufactured firearm) is received by a FFL AND has to be logged into their A&D Book (Acquisition and Disposition books), then the FFL must engrave a serial number on the PMF.

One exception is for gunsmiths who hold a FFL. If they work on a PMF but do not keep it overnight or for any reason that it would have to be logging into their A&D books, then they do not have to engrave a serial number.

For private individuals, nothing has really changed with the new rules. The main change is how one buys the unfinished frames now. There is still no serial number requirement for individuals.

As always, check your state laws since thy might be more restrictive.
 
Thank you. Does this mean that commercially made, unserialized guns manufactured prior to 1968 now need to have serial numbers added if they are received and logged? Or what's the distinction there?
 
1KPerDay said:
Thank you. Does this mean that commercially made, unserialized guns manufactured prior to 1968 now need to have serial numbers added if they are received and logged? Or what's the distinction there?
Click to expand...

I know the whole rule change on frames and receivers is very long, but buried in it, it does specifically state that any firearm made prior to the enactment of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA 68) are exempt from the serial number requirements.

Again, any firearm manufactured before the GCA 68 was not required to have a serial number and still does not require a serial number under the new rules.

Dogtown Tom can correct and/or verify me. When I had my FFL, I would mark the serial number block in my A&D book as NONE or NA for anything made before the GCA 68 went into effect.
 
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1KPerDay said:
@dogtown tom I beg your indulgence, please, as you have a way of explaining the laws in a way everyone can understand.
Click to expand...
Brownnoser.:D



What, if anything has changed on a federal level as far as manufacturing your own gun?
Click to expand...
First, only 07FFL's manufacture.......everyone else is just a maker. The distinction is important and not just word games.



I believe the SCOTUS recently upheld the rule or reaffirmed that making your own firearms is "deeply rooted in the US's history and tradition" or something similar... so is it still legal to make a firearm for your own purposes and use, or does this new "ghost gun" rule somehow interfere with that? does the new rule apply only to "80% receivers" or specifically to "kits"?
Click to expand...
Federally, nothing changed in regards to "80%" frames or receivers.......except if the seller includes additional items. The new regulation basically says an 80% frame/receiver sold as a kit (and ATF specifies what additional tools, jigs, templates, parts and accessories constitute a kit) IS a firearm. If sold as a kit, the seller is required to hold an FFL and the firearm would be transferred just as any other complete firearm.

If it is solely the 80% frame/receiver it is not a firearm and not regulated by federal law.

Secondly, this new regulation has marking requirements. While privately made firearms are completely legal without a serial # and the makers information, if sold or transferred to an FFL, he's required to mark it with a unique serial# and report that serial# to ATF. Prior to this new regulation, there was no means for an FFL to lawfully transfer a post 1968 firearm that had no serial#. This new regulation outlined the marking requirement and recordkeeping procedure.

So......you can continue to buy 80% frames, make your pistol and nothing changes.
If you choose to sell that pistol to someone and need to use an FFL to ship it, he'll engrave the required markings before he can ship to the buyers dealer.
 
12Bravo20 said:
I know the whole rule change on frames and receivers is very long, but buried in it, it does specifically state that any firearm made prior to the enactment of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA 68) are exempt from the serial number requirements.

Again, any firearm manufactured before the GCA 68 was not required to have a serial number and still does not require a serial number under the new rules.

Dogtown Tom can correct and/or verify me. When I had my FFL, I would mark the serial number block in my A&D book as NONE or NA for anything made before the GCA 68 went into effect.
Click to expand...
Ya nailed it!
 
@12Bravo20 @dogtown tom , some clarification if you please: Is it still legal for an unlicenced person to sell or give away an 80% firearm "kit" within the same state, without going through an FFL, if in-state transfer of firearms without going through an FFL is legal in that state between otherwise unprohibited persons? Or do the new rules apply specific restrictions on unserialized 80% receivers when completion kits are included? I assume this is treated the same as a completed firearm, correct?
 
Things are not looking good for ATF in current lawsuit regarding 80% receivers as judge ruled in granting preliminary injunction where ATF's redefinition of "frame or receiver" was invalid and unlawful expansion of ATF's authority of what Congress defined as firearm - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/17-states-join-goa-gof-and-sue-atf’s-new-firearms-rule-on-80-percent-kits.908730/#post-12400399

1KPerDay said:
Is it still legal for an unlicenced person to sell or give away an 80% firearm "kit" within the same state, without going through an FFL
Click to expand...
Is it legal to sell or give away a rock or paper weight within the same state, without going through an FFL? ;)

And if you have any concern about selling tools with your paper weight, just sell them/give away separately. :)

This straight from ATF website - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-“80”-or-“unfinished”-receivers-illegal

Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal?

Receiver blanks that do not meet the definition of a "firearm" are not subject to regulation under the Gun Control Act (GCA). ATF has long held that items such as receiver blanks, "castings" or "machined bodies" in which the fire-control cavity area is completely solid and un-machined have not reached the "stage of manufacture" which would result in the classification of a firearm according to the GCA.

The following three photos are provided as examples. The first receiver has a solid, un-machined fire-control cavity area with no holes or dimples for the selector, trigger, or hammer pins ... does not meet the GCA definition of a firearm.
​
 
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Yeah, but now the same thing with a kit or template or tools included DOES meet the definition of a firearm. From what I understand.
 
1KPerDay said:
Yeah, but now the same thing with a kit or template or tools included DOES meet the definition of a firearm. From what I understand.
Click to expand...
For now ... We are one court ruling away from changing that and there are three active court cases on 80% - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/17-states-join-goa-gof-and-sue-atf’s-new-firearms-rule-on-80-percent-kits.908730/#post-12384602
And we already have preliminary injunctions for VanDerStok case where ATF redefining what "firearm is" was ruled invalid and unlawful.
 
1KPerDay said:
@12Bravo20 @dogtown tom , some clarification if you please: Is it still legal for an unlicenced person to sell or give away an 80% firearm "kit" within the same state, without going through an FFL, if in-state transfer of firearms without going through an FFL is legal in that state between otherwise unprohibited persons? Or do the new rules apply specific restrictions on unserialized 80% receivers when completion kits are included? I assume this is treated the same as a completed firearm, correct?
Click to expand...

Yes it is still legal to transfer an unfinished or finished kit as a private individual to another private individual that is a resident of the same state. There is no need for a serial number or a need to go through a FFL (unless your state law requires that). A PMF (privately manufactured firearm) can be bought and sold between individuals just like any other type of firearm. Just make sure you follow all federal and your state laws.
 
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