Pakistani Enfields?

[Timthinker]

Some time ago, I recall viewing a very interesting news story about cottage industry gunmaking in Pakistan. If memory serves me correctly, these gunsmiths produced copies of various military rifles for local tribes. Among the rifles produced, the old bolt-action Enfield is one that they supposedly make. Does anyone have any further information about this subject?

I know the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee-Enfield) was used by Afghan guerillas during the Soviet occupation of their country, but I did not think that "bootleg" copies of this rifle were still in such demand. Hopefully, some of our members may be able to flesh out the details for me. Thanks.


Timthinker

 

[DougW]

The guerilla's used various Enfield battle rifles. They used British, Australian, and even Pakistani #1's very effectivly. The .303 is a good cartridge out to 800 yards or more. A skilled rifleman could pick off targets from further distances than the AKM equipped Soviet riflemen. The rifles are easy to maintain and fast to shoot. (There is even a story of a US Cav Bradley commander using a "liberated" #4mk1 very effectivly against Iraq Army units is the early days o the war. The shots were over 400 yards away, and the Sgt. put down a bunch of the bad guys.)

There are rifles known as "Khyber Pass Specials", or home grown selections of #1 and #4 rifles, and clones and morphs of multipal rifles. They exist, but are not my first choice for a range rifle. But, if you have nothing else, the Khyber Pass rifles do function and are fairly well made, but had a tendency to "kaboom". Not real healthy for the shooter!

 

[Davo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arjc_tKofhA

 

[Timthinker]

Thanks for the info and the video clip about these cottage gunsmiths. I am still amazed that people would reproduce such an old rifle design for 21st century combatants. This is high praise indeed for the reliability of the Enfield. If you have any more information or stories about its use today, I would appreciate reading those comments. Thanks.


Timthinker

 

[DougW]

Tim, the Canadian Rangers still deploy on their patrol's today with Long Branch #4mk1*'s. In the extreem cold climate, the #4 was found to be the most reliable and hard hitting to patrol the northern boarder of Canada. You can still see Indian and Pakastani police with #1mk3 rifles also.

 

[Hoppy590]

i think alot of it is cultural. they value the history of thier struggle against the british imperialism in the area. everynow and then you will see Osama or other alquida/insurgent/terrorist/freedom fighter/ meanie pants with an AR. its not because he likes it. but because its a status symbol. it represent the defeat of an "imperialist"

 

[toecutter]

I've seen the videos of them producing these guns out in what appears to be frontier conditions. Bare feet become holding tools in lieu of anvils. One thing I didn't see a lot of in these videos was heat treating. Which may not be as much an issue for an AK.

Personally, I own a POF mk1, it does go bang, but it is still a piece of cr*p. It seems absolutely mideval compared to the MK4 sniper rifle I bought at auction earlier this year. (British arsenal mfg, all the bolt ons are parker-hale)

The interesting thing the POF did was bore a number of thier mk1's out to .410 shotgun. I've heard a number of motives for this. Most of them seem to involve the use by paki forces of these for riot control. Interestingly I have seen people loading blown out .303 brit rounds with cornmeal to blow them out to a straight-wall case for reloading them into .410 rounds.

There are also the .308 win versions. I can't remember if these were POF or indian.

 

[mainmech48]

That area has been in the arms business for nearly two centuries. It went from snaphaunce and flintlock jezaels, to caplock Enfield muskets, to Snyders and Martinis, to Lee Enfields. Peshawar is the main hub, and a locally-made copy of damn near anything that shoots can be had in the bazaar there if one has the cash.

 

[Novus Collectus]

I have a Khyber pass rifle/ I will never ever shoot it and I bought it as a conversation piece.
It may be unsafe to shoot, not very mechanicaly functional (safety doesn't even work), but damn it looks interesting. The metalurgy is suspect, but the metal smithing is great and the magazine looks better made than the Indian made magazine for my Indian Enfield......but the key word is "looks" better.
They even duplicate the stampings and markings on the metal just like it was on the rifle they copied it from. They sometimes don't get the markings and spelling right and the stamps probably used look like they were hand carved, but that just adds to the curio aspect IMO.
One thing I really like about it is the brass butt plate. Not sure if all Khyber pass Endfields have the brass buttplate though.

 

[mainmech48]

In the late 1950's and early 1960's the Indian government converted fairly large numbers of RFI No.1 Mk.III SMLEs into single-shot smoothbore 'muskets' for use by urban police and prison guards. Pakistan may well have done the same.

The first were chambered for a special cartridge made from .303 British brass cases loaded with 2 or 3 .410 bore buckshot. Examples are seen chambered for both full-length and shortened cases. Later models were chambered for standard British 2" and 2 1/2" .410 bore cartridges.

Many of these were imported as surplus into the U.S. by various firms over the past 25-30 yrs and many were rechambered to accept 3" .410s in order to increase their appeal to buyers. Unlike the true "Khyber Pass" knock-off SMLEs they are perfectly safe to shoot with factory ammo (if in good condition) having been manufactured in the same arsenals and factories which produced No.1 Mk.III, No.2/2A SMLEs and FALs for the British and Indian military. They're also great fun to plink with.

The No.2 and 2A SMLEs were not conversions of .303 SMLEs, although they are based on the No.1 Mk.III design. The metallurgy was re-engineered to handle the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge which the Indians adopted when the went to the FAL as their standard infantry rifle. IIRC, they were secondary arms issued to urban and rural police units, border guards, and reserves. They are also good, inexpensive shooters and capable of very good accuracy.

Brass buttplates were standard on RFI-made SMLEs and No.2s. Many are also seen with the forestocks wrapped with wire to reinforce them for launching grenades.

Though the ubiquitous Kalashnikov, both original and local copies, has largely supplanted the SMLE as the tribesman's arm-of-choice decades of familiarity, low cost, relative simplicity of operation and maintenance, availability, rugged reliability and long range capability will keep Old Smelly in production there for a goodly while yet.

 

[Browning]

From what I understand the Khyber Pass and Darra regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan have been a place where tribal gun manufacturers have been busy for a very long time. From what I've heard and read their firearms range from crude, dangerous to the user and ugly as hell to very functional and sometimes downright beautiful.

This is what I was able to find on the subject.

Surplus Arms Collector Site About Guns From Afghanistan.
http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/darra.htm

Surplus Arms Collectors
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/ishy/index.asp

Khyber Pass Copy Guns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_Copy

Discussion On A Different Forum On The Subject
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=25730&view=previous

Enfield Rifles.
http://www.trackpads.com/factsheets/showproduct.php/product/494/sort/1/cat/13/page/1

Khyber Pass Copies
http://www.courter.org/guns/rifles/martini-enfield.html

Warrior Culture In Region Making It Difficult For Canadian And US Troops.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=c55ce9ea-1fe9-40dd-8ad6-e5eff51fbd72

Arms Trade In Afghanistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXrNoqAbSP8

I may be wrong, but I believe that this tribal area extends from the Khyber Pass in Afghanistan To Peshawar Pakistan and that all that all the tribes basically have ties to each other. From what I've read Kabul and Islamabad don't really have much authority in these regions and their soldiers and police usually stay out of the area unless they come in large numbers.

 

[45s save lives]

What an interesting post! I happen to love enfields. I have 2 No.4 Mk1s. I used to get alot of crap at gunsmith school for liking and working on these rifles. But I didnt and still dont care, I love them. I dont consider them a viable combat rifle for today, but in the right hands they are damn lethal! The story about the US CAV trooper was really cool too. Its one of those stories that if it isnt true, it should be! Gunsmiths dont like them because "on paper" its an inferior design to the mauser 98 and copies. It has a split rear ring, rear locking lugs, two piece stock, fires a rimmed cartridge, and because they were made for so long in so many places, some wartime production some not, that quality of materials and workmanship varies quite a bit. Especially in bore diameter, Ive seen them from .309-.317! They also have oversize chambers, and MANY have excess heaqdspace. The No. 4s have interchangable bolt heads to correct headspace but to be honest ive never seen this work because of the amount they are out of headspace. Mine was 19thousandths. And as many are quite old and have seen very hard use the conditions of these riflesd ranges from unissued to unusable! Before the hate mail pours in let me reiterate, I AM A FAN OF THESE RIFLES!!! And I own two, and want more! The Indian 7.62 NATO versions I wouldnt fool with. They arnt strong enough for the cartridge. Even with the No. 4's stronger action and better metalurgy, they arnt strong enough! Use at you own risk! Ive never seen one SCLID (sudden catostrophic load induced disassembly), but they are very hard on extractors. I have even seen an older model in 7.62, I wouldnt fire that thing for anything! Anyways, if anyone has excessive headspace and would like to know how to correct it or if your local smith needs advice please contact me. By the way 303 brit & 30-40 krag headspace gauges are interchangable.

 

[Timthinker]

The quality and quantity of information everyone has provided far exceeds my expectations. In particular, the story about "musket" SMLEs is something I never knew. Also, the post-1945 information about SMLE history adds another chapter to my understanding of this old warhorse. I appreciate everything our members have shared. Thanks again.


Timthinker

 

[Hoppy590]

the musket enfields an be had from 200-300$ here in MA. i saw 3 in one day once.

 

[Browning]

Hoppy590 : the musket enfields an be had from 200-300$ here in MA. i saw 3 in one day once.

Huh? I was kind of under the impression that they were kind of rare over here.

I've only ever seen one once in person over at a shop in Dallas over by SMU (the name of which escapes me at this moment) that specialized in antique firearms and then I've seen them in ads where they can just sell them mail order as they're black powder.

Like here.



http://www.ima-usa.com/index.php/cPath/29_61?osCsid=e7a8e583f1cdd3457e3cdbf1623206d8

http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/RiflesMartini.html

http://www.antiquemilitaryrifles.com/

http://www.adamsguns.com/0s.htm

I know that a whole bunch were found in Nepal and that now they're more common than they were before, but I personally haven't seen very many of them at all. Maybe the just aren't all that popular here for whatever reason.

http://www.nrapublications.org/tar/Nepal.asp

Videos on finding antique British Firearms in Nepal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDWWH6qSpeY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb9UVyPN6rY

 

[Novus Collectus]

Being a black powder arm is not what makes one an antique. It has to either be a muzzleloader made any time, or cartridge firing made before 1899.
The Martini rifles referred to are cartridge firing made before 1899.
A rifle firing commercially available smokeless powder catridges made before 1899 is also an antique and can be mailed USPS accross state lines.

 

[Browning]

Yeah, I know. I just phrased it incorrectly.

But those Martinis are antiques as they were all made before 1899.

 

[mainmech48]

There seems to be some confusion being generated by the generic use of the word 'Enfield' here. Enfield was the armoury, and it produced and developed rifles and other small arms of many different types and designs. The name was often added to the military nomenclature to denote a variation incorporating changes or modifications to the original design developed by the armoury.

Don't know whether the 'musket Enfields' Hoppy was referring to are the Martinis from Nepal or not. The ones I was talking about are based on the SMLE and were called muskets because they'd been modified to smooth bores. I've seen smooth bore Martinis, but most of them were either converted for sale to the native trade in formerly colonial African and Asian countries or to be used as line-throwing guns aboard ships.

The rifle design in the last posted photo was originally adopted as the Peabody-Martini. When the British military changed to Cordite instead of blackpowder in the .577/.450 cartridges it became known as the Martini-Enfield because the armoury developed the rifling design and steel specs of the new barrels to resist the erosive effects of the new powder.

The design we've been discussing most was the brainchild of James Parris Lee. First adopted as the Lee-Metford, the name was changed by the British to the Lee-Enfield after the design was modified by the armoury for better barrel life with their Cordite-loaded ammunition.

The nomenclature changed again after the decision made was pre-WWI to standardize one weapon for issue to all troops instead of making a 'long' infantry rifle and a carbine. That rifle was the Short Magazine Lee Enfield.

Another rifle bearing the name was the Pattern 1914, first designed for a new .276 cartridge and modified for the standard .303 round at the beginning of WWI. US manufacturers produced large numbers of these for the Brits and a version known as the Pattern 1917 in .30-06 for our forces to augment the 1903 Springfields when we formally entered the war in that year. These are most often referred to here as the 1917 Enfield.

Yeah, I know; when most of us hear the word 'Enfield' we think of the SMLE. But to avoid muddying up the waters any more perhaps we should start including a qualifier like 'Lee' or 'Martini' so everyone's on the same page.

BTW, the No.2 7.62 NATO rifles weren't based on the No.4 action. It was the No.1 Mk. III, mostly because that's the only SMLE design that was produced at Ishapore and was what they had the tooling and trained workforce to make without a major capital reinvestment. They were re-engineered for the higher pressure levels of the cartridge and proofed to the same NATO specs and standards as the FAL, M-14, G3 or any other weapon in that chambering. In good condition (which includes in-spec headspacing) they're perfectly safe to shoot with NATO spec 7.62x51 ammo. How many rounds they'll go between maintenance adjustments or repairs compared to more modern designs is another matter. IMO, that number of rounds is more related to the original condition of the individual rifle when acquired, how it's maintained, and the quality of the ammunition used in it than anything else. Smart shooters monitor the condition of any firearm forty-odd years of age and more for changes and signs of wear, especially mil-surps.

 

[Browning]

I was actually talking about two different Enfields.

This one.

And this one.


Sorry, I didn't separate them more clearly in my previous posts.

 

[Hoppy590]

i was talking about the converted No1.MkIII. my apologies